Qbe Insurance Grp Ltd

Good morning and thank you for joining us today. I'm here today with Inder Singh, our group CFO, and this morning we'll take you through what are another great set of results for QBE. We're well on track for a strong year and I think the business is on an exciting trajectory. Before we begin, I'll start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the many lands on which we meet today. For me, This is the Gadigal lands of the Eora Nation and recognize their continuing connection to land, waters, and culture. I pay my respects to the elders past and present, and I extend this respect to any First Nations people joining us today. Moving to slide four with a snapshot of our result. It's clear we've had a good start to the year, with strength across the board from growth to underwriting, investments to capital. Headline GWP growth picked up to 6%, which was driven by underlying X rate growth of 7%. Profitability is attractive across the majority of portfolios and we remain motivated to grow the business. Our first half combined ratio of 92.8% is essentially in line with our full year outlook and represents another marker of more predictable, resilient performance. To this end, catastrophe costs were comfortably below allowance in a period pegged as the worst first half for the industry in over a decade. We had favorable prior year releases, which is encouraging, following our efforts to de-risk and build resilience into the balance sheet. And finally, we've delivered steady performance in a backdrop which was quite complex, with escalating conflicts, tariff disruptions, plus an active period for large claims. As expected, premium rate increases moderated through the period. This was most noticeable in certain commercial property and Lloyds portfolios, while the remainder of the business was much more stable at around 4.5%. Our investment result was broadly steady on the prior period, with income of close to $800 million, representing an annualized return of almost 5%. Collectively, return on equity of 19.2% was excellent, and we're on track to deliver another year of high teen returns. Our capital position and balance sheet remain well positioned, and through the period, we welcomed credit rating upgrades from S&P and Fitch, who both moved to AA minus. Finally, we've announced an interim dividend of 31 cents. Turning to slide five. I wanted to open with a recap on the key pillars underpinning our medium-term aspiration for QBE, outlined here at the bottom of the slide. We shared these with you in February, which appear to have resonated well, giving you a sense of what QBE wants to be known for over coming years. In effect, they are five simple ambitions, which we think, if done consistently, can be differentiating and drive significant value for shareholders. This is exciting as the pivot in our focus and ambition is occurring at a point where industry fundamentals are quite attractive. To expand on that a little, we operate in an increasingly uncertain world and the risk landscape is really quite complex. As you think through the prior half decade, the world has encountered a global pandemic, material economic and geopolitical uncertainty, significant impacts from extreme weather, high-profile cyber incidents, plus more active conflict than we've seen in many decades. Our customers have been impacted to varying degrees, and as a result, are more risk-aware and ultimately more risk-averse. Commercial P&C has an incredibly important role to play in this backdrop, and we're motivated to deliver great solutions for our customers. I think commercial P&C also has a critical role to play in supporting a number of major global growth thematics over the coming decade. From the renewables transition, the shift toward digital assets, infrastructure for growing populations, and the evolution of mobility, all themes need innovative and dependable insurance partnership. Along this path, new risks will undoubtedly emerge as technology and economies evolve. We'll be well integrated into these structural shifts, given our problem-solving culture, leading broker relations, and strong presence in our key markets. As we look at the industry today, returns are attractive, and the market remains disciplined in aggregate. We think this speaks to the inherent complexity in the commercial P&C landscape currently and the need for more consistent industry returns. With improved pricing and claimed sophistication over the past decade, those in the industry who truly understand risk plus have scaled diversified operations will be best placed to navigate these trends and capitalize on emerging opportunities. So turning to slide six. So then how is our strategy evolving to capitalize on this backdrop and support our medium-term aspiration? You'll recall in February we suggested 2024 was a period of transition for QBE. In the years prior, we'd have been incredibly focused on initiatives to de-risk the business, achieve better balance, reduce volatility, and sustainably improve performance. Where we stand today, we feel the health of our underwriting portfolio is excellent. We're on track to further reduce underperforming sales this year, and our strategy is becoming more future-focused. For portfolio optimization, that means evolving beyond a period focused on fix, repair, and exit to one where we continually look to optimize the portfolio across dimensions of growth, ROE, combined ratio, and volatility. As a result, we've had more time to concentrate on our growth strategies and align as an enterprise behind our most compelling structural opportunities. Our modernization strategy is evolving too. With a number of important foundational system and data work streams behind us, we're well placed to lift our pace on transformation. We have a sound data and AI strategy and understand the foundations required for QBE to deploy AI at scale across the enterprise, which in some cases will involve functional transformation. We have a number of great partnerships in this space from the world's largest companies through startups, which can experiment and build solutions at a much faster pace than us. Our progress, execution, and momentum are all underpinned by ongoing stability in senior leadership, which is important for consistency. On balance, there's a great deal of change occurring at QBE, and it's a real privilege to be leading the company through this transition. Putting this all together, what do we want to be known for medium term? Firstly, we're a uniquely positioned international carrier with strong presence and relationships across all key markets and platforms. This lends us a level of portfolio diversification, which now in better balance will drive more predictable underwriting performance. We want to keep growing and effectively build on this better base. We're building a business which can deliver sustainable mid-single-digit volume growth. Beyond growth, we're building a more efficient and effective business, and over time, this will unlock significant value. And finally, we want to be known for being highly disciplined in how we allocate and manage capital. and we shared our capital allocation framework with you in February. Collectively, continued delivery around these ambitions will generate high-quality performance, which we expect will be rewarded by markets. Turning to slide seven. This slide unpacks one of the points I just made, giving you some color on the balance in our portfolio and how it drives predictable performance. We've shared a handful of different views of our business on the left. No matter how you cut it, QB is one of the most uniquely differentiated and diversified carriers in the world. Unlike many international insurers, we aren't over-indexed to our home market and have true balance across our key regions of operation. We have broad expertise, both in product-led and more service-led segments, and have talent and capability across all key classes of business. This broad presence is underscored by leading relevant franchises, which gives us representation across all key insurance and reinsurance hubs and markets. Ultimately, insurance is all about diversification, and QB is a fantastically diverse business. With our portfolio now in better balance, we have confidence in sustaining more consistent performance. To illustrate this point, we've included the chart on the right. What this shows is a view of our 13 underwriting pools, which are an aggregation of our multiple cells. into broad domains of commercial, specialty, and reinsurance, which we use for internal performance measurement. For instance, North America Commercial is a pool, QBE Re is a pool, our UK commercial business is a pool, and so on. It gives you some sense of the distribution of our growth and rate this year, but also the distribution of our combined ratio across the business, shown here relative to this year's outlook of 92.5%. At any point in time, there is a widespread of profitability across our portfolios, with varying price, claims, combined ratio, and ROE dynamics. While a lot of attention gets placed on where premium rate increases are relative to inflation in forums like today's, in reality, this is only one of many drivers feeding into the outlook for underwriting margins. Mixed portfolio management and portfolio optimization initiatives are incredibly important in this regard. as are terms, risk selection, retention, plus also efficiency, and the volume growth in this chart supports margin as the business scales. You can see some pools have a combined ratio which is accretive to our 92.5% outlook, which we are generally growing. Others are dilutive, which we are shrinking in the most notable instances. In some cases, however, we are growing pools which have a combined ratio above 92.5%, In many instances, these pools have a slightly higher combined ratio, though need less capital, and give us a highly accretive ROE. For example, at 1.1 this year, we grew our U.S. A&H business substantially, which plans around 96%. Though has low volatility, it's capital light, and we'd love it to be even bigger. In other instances, we may be growing a combined ratio dilutive pool for strategic reasons. For example, we're standing up adjacencies in North America, These are multi-year investments which take time to grow and scale. Pool C will draw some focus, which is experiencing premium rate reduction. This is international markets, which is effectively our Lloyds business. Rate is negative, though it has an accretive combined ratio, and most Lloyds underwriters will tell you some of the most attractively priced business in many years, which we're trying to add more of. When you double-click into this chart, behind it is 50-plus cells, all with different profitability dimensions. While we guide to a combined ratio, we manage and view profitability across multiple dimensions and often make trade-offs between combined ratio versus ROE, which is ultimately what drives shareholder returns. So to close here, we create a lot of value through active portfolio management, and particularly as markets become more nuanced, our diversification gives us many levers to optimize performance. Moving on to customer and growth on slide eight. We outlined our ambition for sustainable mid-single-digit volume growth at our briefing in February. With a presence which spans most products and regions, all with their own unique profitability cycles, there will always be something we can grow. X-rate growth in the first half was 5% or closer to 7%, excluding exits and crop, and we're well on track to extend our track record of sustainable growth in 2025. We want to spend some time on our customer strategic priority today. Our work and ambition in this space will be another important enabler of our growth strategy. In February, I flagged that Julie Miner has joined us as Group Head of Distribution and will lead our customer strategic priority. The two key pillars underpinning this work will be, firstly, to better serve our customers, and secondly, to build deeper relationships with our distribution partners, taking each in turn. We've never had an enterprise customer strategy, and this is an exciting direction for us. We serve customers right across the spectrum, from consumers and small businesses through Fortune 500 multinationals. We think there's a significant opportunity to better serve the unique needs of our customers across these segments. We commence building the data and capability to tailor our products and services, leveraging an enterprise-wide CRM system to improve customer data and analytics. We've also started mapping key customers across the enterprise to senior relationship leads to improve engagement. And this year included a customer component within the non-financial metrics underpinning our long-term incentive program. Turning to distribution. Our historic approach to distribution has been somewhat fragmented. And since joining QBE, I've been motivated to build an enterprise strategy. have a lot to gain by better leveraging our global scale and becoming more targeted in our distribution strategy. We can also gain from improving engagement at all levels of the organization. This year, we've commenced mapping GEC sponsors to each of our largest trading partners to support and grow key relationships. With that, I'll now pass to Inder.

Well, thank you, Andrew, and good morning all. As Andrew has referenced, we've had a strong start to the year, and this is an excellent set of results. Our performance across both underwriting and investments is tracking in line with or better than our 2025 plans, and our annualised return on equity at 19.2% is particularly pleasing. Our ambition is to continue to shape the business to deliver sustainable, industry-leading performance over the medium term. I'll start with an overview of our result on slide 10. Gross written premium of $13.8 billion was up 6% over the prior period or around 8% excluding crop and business exits. Our combined ratio improved by around one point and positions as well to deliver our full year outlook. The improvement was driven by the reduced strain from non-core lines, some favourability from CAT, a modest release from prior year reserves and consistent current year underwriting performance. A high-quality investment portfolio delivered an annualized return of almost 5%, which was broadly stable versus the prior period, despite what has been quite a volatile six months for financial markets. This was driven by a fairly steady core fixed income yield of around 4% and a strong performance in risk assets. The net impact of changes in risk-free rates was again broadly neutral this period, a pleasing outcome given the elevated volatility and macro uncertainty. We had a tax rate of 23%. This was a little better than expected, driven by the mix of our earnings tilting towards our North American tax group. We continue to see our effective tax rate trending at around 25% now that we've fully exhausted our U.S. deferred tax assets. I do want to call out two items which are more one-off in nature. Firstly, we had an FX gain of around $35 million, which gets accounted for in our investment result. Secondly, as we worked through the final phase of our U.S. non-core runoff, we booked a gain on sale of around $18 million associated with the wind-down of our homeowners' portfolio. Adjusted net profit for the half was a record $1 billion, up almost 30% versus the prior period. Group return on equity was excellent at 19.2%, increasing by around two points. Our capital position remains very strong with the PCA multiple at 1.85 times. The Board has declared an interim dividend of 31 Australian cents per share, which equates to a first-half payout ratio of around 30%. Consistent with prior years, our distribution is a little lower in the first half, and we will true this up with the final dividend at the end of the year. We have slightly increased our dividend franking rate to 25% from 20% previously, and we expect to maintain this over the medium term. Turning to growth on slide 11. We've had a good start to the year for growth and are on track for our full year outlook. Group GWP growth of 6% was substantially higher than the 2% we delivered in the prior period. The drag from exited lines is now moderating and the headline growth rate more clearly illustrates the strong momentum we've built in the business. Excluding the impact of crop, GWP growth was 6% and on further excluding the impact of portfolio exits, growth was closer to 8%. This was driven by average rate increases of around 2% and X rate growth on the same basis of 7%. Andrew spoke about market conditions in his remarks. To add some additional colour, premium rate increases for the half were broadly in line with expectations for North America and for international, though were a touch softer than anticipated in AUSPAC. We are seeing modest rate reduction in commercial property lines and most Lloyds portfolios. Rate in some of these segments has increased by well north of 50% in recent years. Profitability is excellent, and giving up some modest rate will have limited near-term consequence for the overall group margin. If we adjust for these two segments, group premium rate increases for the half were around 4.5%, down modestly from the prior year. Volume growth in the period was a function of organic growth in a number of northern hemisphere segments, including accident health, U.S. specialty, crop, cyber portfolio solutions, and reinsurance. We have highlighted many of these segments as key growth focus areas through recent briefings. Our modernization and customer strategic priorities are well aligned to this ambition, and we're investing to build capabilities to support growth. Our premium retention rate was stable over the period and pleasingly continues to improve for the core North American business. For the full year, we continue to expect a drag from exited portfolios of around $250 million, with roughly $200 billion of that having occurred this half. Turning to slide 12 for some comments on our underwriting performance. Our underwriting result was excellent and one of the strongest in many years. The combined ratio improved by around 1.0 to 92.8%, essentially in line with our full year outlook. The year-over-year trend can be broadly attributed to three main drivers. Firstly, the drag from non-core lines is significantly lower, which benefited from a modest release from prior year reserves. Secondly, we had some favorability from CAT alongside a modest prior year release in the core business, predominantly from short-tail lines. And finally, we continue to benefit from favorable market dynamics with a combination of moderating inflation, compounding rate increases, and operating leverage, tempered by slightly elevated large loss experience. Catastrophe costs of around $480 million were comfortably within our allowance of $550 million. This is particularly pleasing given industry estimates for insured losses show the first half as being the costliest start of the year for insurers in over a decade. We feel good about the resilience of our cat risk settings given the portfolio and profile of our book and the construct of our reinsurance program where we continue to retain all upside in benign periods. Pleasingly on reserves, we saw favorable development around the central estimate of 90 million compared to 20 million adverse in the prior period. We saw releases in a number of North American and Australian short tail classes alongside a continuation of releases in crop, in CTP and in LMI. The XCAT claims ratio was relatively steady versus the prior period. The benefit from supportive market conditions was offset by a change in business mix and the slightly elevated large claims experience I referenced earlier. In the middle of the slide, we've included a view of our premium rate increases by business segment index back to 2020. This chart highlights the extent of rate increases in recent years and provides some insight into the strong levels of profitability embedded in our portfolio. It is worth noting that these rate increases have been accompanied with significant improvements in broader policy terms and conditions, such as lower limit deployments in many classes of business. Moving to expenses, our expense ratio was steady at around 12%. We continue to benefit from positive operating leverage and will maintain a healthy level of reinvestment to support the higher change spend associated with our transformation agenda. As we referenced in February, we expect the expense ratio to remain in the 12% to 12.5% range again this year. As Andrew noted earlier, we see a significant opportunity to become a more efficient and effective organization, and this, together with the benefits from our modernization programs, should support a lower expense ratio over the medium term. Moving to divisional performance on slide 13. Importantly, each of our divisions performed well through the first half, and this speaks to the broad strength and quality of our earnings base. In North America, the combined ratio continues to edge lower, and the non-core runoff is well on track. We achieved another period of strong growth in accident health and financial lines, and some of our newer adjacencies and specialty lines, such as construction and health care, are building momentum and market presence. We're now moving into the final months of the non-core runoff and are very pleased with the progress we've made. As you can see on the left-hand side of this slide, the non-core result for the half was an underwriting loss of just $20 million. This is an exceptional outcome given the CAT activity in the period, and this outcome has significantly de-risked our full-year underwriting targets for this segment. The core segment result of 96% slightly missed our plan. though we continue to expect a full year result of around the mid-90s. The combined ratio of the core business was impacted by some large loss activity in our aviation book, plus some impacts from business mix given the recent growth in accident health, which runs at a higher combined ratio. The crop result of 92% benefited from favourable prior year development, while the current year combined ratio was booked at 95%, consistent with the approach adopted in the prior period. Over the last few months, we have conducted a comprehensive review of our crop strategy with the objective of constructing a better balanced portfolio and improving performance of private products like hail and livestock. We've been able to enact a number of important changes for the 2025 season, including much higher usage of the federal reinsurance scheme, which is reflected in our net insurance revenue decreasing by 6% during the period, despite our gross written premium increasing by 9%. For private products, we commence pushing substantial rate increases and reducing exposure in certain areas. We've appointed a new CEO for the business alongside other senior leadership changes we've made last year. Moving to international, the combined ratio of 92.5% increased by around three points, which was a resilient result in light of industry loss activity in the period. This was driven by a two-point increase in catastrophe costs, where the majority of QBE's LA wildfire exposure sat within international. Despite this, both insurance and reinsurance portfolios delivered excellent underwriting results. Importantly, growth momentum remained strong, and we achieved X-rate growth across all of our segments, including Lloyds, reinsurance, UK, Europe, and Asia. The level of premium rate increases has moderated, albeit this is most pronounced in our Lloyds business, where established market participants are looking to grow at what continue to be healthy levels of profitability across most portfolios. Overall premium rate increases in international ran at around 1% this half, though when you look below this headline, rate increases were roughly 4% across our reinsurance, UK, and European segments. Moving to Australia-Pacific. The combined ratio here was excellent, improving significantly versus the prior period, which was impacted by elevated catastrophe costs. Through first half 2025, catastrophe costs ran closer to budget, despite a reasonably active period of storm and flood events. We saw strong favourable prior year development, supported by LMI, CTP and multiple short-tail portfolios, where inflation continues to gradually tick lower. The growth story has been a little bit more challenging closer to home. The market remains fairly competitive, albeit still rational, in light of declining inflation and attractive profitability across most lines. Similar to the northern hemisphere, rate has moderated most in commercial property, while other commercial portfolios like farm, commercial packs, and commercial motor continue to see rate in the mid to high single digits. Turning now to our investment result on slide 14. Despite a host of macroeconomic and geopolitical challenges, financial markets have remained supportive this year. Our portfolio delivered total investment income of almost $800 million, which represents an annualised return of nearly 5%. Through the height of the tariff-related volatility in April, the portfolio exhibited pleasing resilience and delivered predictable performance. The fixed income yield has trended around 4% range through most of the year and exited the half at approximately 3.8%. Total duration is now up to around two and a half years. When we cast our mind towards year-end, futures markets currently imply the fixed income yield will exit 2025 at around 3.6%. This is obviously a point-in-time view as of today. our investment firm increased quite meaningfully in the period, up 11% over the last six months. It's worth noting that FX movements accounted for roughly half of this increase, with constant currency firm up around 5%. We suspect FX will remain a notable influence in the current environment, and some of these increases have likely reversed through July and early August. As previously flagged, we have built a portfolio of fixed income securities that will follow fair value accounting, with mark-to-market impacts being recorded with an equity or other comprehensive income. This portfolio has now reached around $3.5 billion, or 12% of our core fixed income portfolio, where it should remain broadly stable. Our risk asset portfolio performed well, led by strong returns in equities and enhanced fixed income. It's also been pleasing to see commercial property valuation stabilize, resulting in a modest positive return in our unlisted property sleeve. I referenced an FX gain of around $35 million earlier. This is reported within the expenses and other line shown in this table. Moving now to slide 15. The strength and quality of our balance sheet remains a great story. During the period, we received two important credit rating upgrades. Both S&P and Fitch have moved their rating to AA- from single A+. This is the first time ever that QBE has held a AA rating, and it represents strong external validation of the progress we've made to improve the quality and resilience of our business. Turning to our capital position, we ended the half at a PCA multiple of 1.85 times, which was broadly in line with the prior period. This was predominantly supported by an increase in our core equity Tier 1 ratio to 1.34 times as the quality of our capital continues to improve. Following the payment of the interim dividend, we will hold a pro forma PCA position of 1.81 times. Debt to total capital increased by around 5 points to 25%, primarily due to the redemption of our two Tier 1 notes, which totaled around $900 million and were accounted for as equity. This funding has effectively been replaced by new Tier 2 issuance, which will result in a slight improvement in our overall cost of capital. We expect gearing will glide back towards the middle of our target range over the medium term. It's important to note that following these redemptions, we currently have no Tier 1 instruments in our capital stack, which leaves us significant flexibility should we need to engage these markets in the future. I'll pause here and hand back to Andrew.

Thanks, Inder. So no changes to note on our outlook. We're on track to achieve constant currency gross written premium growth around the mid-single digits. The drag from exit lines remains pegged at around 250 million this year, which should be negligible in 2026. We've maintained our group combined ratio outlook at around 92.5%. And finally, on investment returns, our exit yield was 3.8%. Taken together, return on equity in 2025 should be excellent, continuing somewhere in the high teens. We'll hold our usual third quarter update on November 27th and look forward to discussing second half performance then. I'll pause here and before wrapping up, do want to thank our 13,000 people for their contribution. This is an excellent result and ultimately represents the collective output of our steady, measured execution and effort over recent years. With that, I want to thank you for joining us and I'll pass back to the operator for Q&A.

Thank you. As a reminder, to ask a question, please press star 1 and 1 on your telephone keypad and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star one and one again. Please stand by as we compile the Q&A roster. First question comes from Curran Chittney from UBS. Your line is now open.

Hi, guys. A couple of questions, maybe just starting on some of the commentary around business conditions. Slide seven says, the portfolio management sort of data you unpack. Can you just talk to, I guess, collectively what the GWP growth was in the segments where you're achieving better than 92.5% group core relative to the segments that aren't? And also sort of off the back of that, Just touch on or expand on the commentary on the outlook slide where you sort of in the combined ratio commentary talking about underlying business settings continuing to improve, which just seems a little bit at odds with, you know, being the softening in premium rates down to 2% relative to your low to mid single digit inflation outlook.

So picking up on those, I haven't got the breakdown between the ones above 92.5% and below 92.5%. And I was also trying to flag that obviously some of the things like ANH, which we grew by more than 10%, were going to be above 92.5%, but still contributes to the ROE. What we're trying to show within that slide, that there is a great opportunity within our pools to also alter business mix if rating pressure becomes too great in some areas. And we were also trying to align that to where technical pricing is at this point in time, and technical pricing across a number of our portfolios still looks pretty good. So that's picking up the second... point you made that while technical pricing is good despite rates coming off we still want to grow those areas and a great case in point and this gets more focus than almost anything else is everybody's focusing on property generally insurance and reinsurance and within that some extent property cat which is having the most negative rate decrease at this point in time probably having had the most rate increase over the past four or five years it is still priced relatively well so we can still write that and it can still be a contributor to our roe and our combined ratio. So that's what we're trying to do. Your point's a really good one of where actually is inflation going, because the most important element for the success of all insurance companies, including us, is trying to get that claims inflation number right. Although rating is important, obviously, where prices are going, it is important. If claims inflation is double that or half that, then that makes a material difference to your potential profitability at some point in the future. And I think we're still holding a reasonably good position on the claims inflation. We don't want to lower our expectation yet of it, mainly because it's feeding into our pricing. So I want to try and hold pricing in the market up as much as possible as we can. We'll have to see where inflation goes over the next few years. So where the gaps between claims, inflation and rate is obviously in international markets because there's no way inflation is going backwards at this point in time. And you see international markets has got a rate reduction. But in a number of lines of business, rate is still holding above what our expected claims inflation are. There are some exceptions and property is one and the international markets more broadly is another.

Okay, thanks. And the second question, just flying off the back of that, I guess, sort of the difference in this result, and I guess, prospectively, maybe moving forward between underlying and reported combined ratios this period, you've seen really good support, well, you know, flight support, I guess, from below-budget CAT outcomes, despite, you know, being the worst first half globally in over a decade. And we're seeing very good sort of balance sheet sort of prior year reserve releases start to come through, but you potentially have a lot of capacity there. Two questions around that. The cap budget, where it is at the moment in the context of what was a really tough half globally, is it too conservative now? Are you getting proper credit for that? And are you sort of including that cap budget within your pricing and sort of maybe missing some growth opportunities because of having an overly conservative view there?

It's a really great question, isn't it? Because if we look back over the years, we got our cap budget right. over it and were sort of criticized for that and now we have this much more positive challenge of are we being too conservative in the cap budget. I think I've said a number of times I really like having the cap budget at a relatively conservative level and we're obviously doing it at roughly the 80th percentile so four out of five years theoretically if we've got it right we should be under the cap budget so that's good. I like having that within the businesses, though, because they do have to hold discipline on pricing. Your point is a valid one. We need to look at whether that just makes us completely uncompetitive. But I like the idea it's fed down into each of the three divisions to ensure that pricing covers the cap budget we've got. So I don't really want to reduce it below the 80th percentile, which would be a way to do that, because I think we'll just exacerbate the market dynamics, which is putting property under pressure anyway. But yeah, we've obviously got to continue to look at it. And we do look at it. But I think it's the right thing to do is hold a relatively conservative position.