Siemens Healthineers Ag

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Siemens Healthineers Conference Call. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. Before we begin, I would like to draw your attention to the Safe Harbor Statement on page 2 of the Siemens Healthineers presentation. This conference call may include forward-looking statements. These statements are based on the company's current expectations and certain assumptions, and are therefore subject to certain risks and uncertainties. At this time, I would like to turn the call over to your host today, Mr. Mark Kubanek, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, operator. Good morning and welcome to our fourth quarter 2026 earnings 25 earnings call. It's great that you are tuning in again today. At 7 a.m. we published our Q4 results and the materials for today's results are all available on the IR section of the Siemens Healthineers website. It is common practice that our CEO Bernd Montag and our CFO Jochen Schmitz will be presenting to you what you need to know about our Q4 of fiscal 25 and about the outlook 2026. After their presentation, we will have a Q&A session. To ensure everyone gets the opportunity to engage, we kindly ask that each participant limit themselves to one question each. You will also have the chance to follow up and get back into the queue. Additionally, please note that a full transcript and recording of today's call will be made available on our investor relations website. Again, thank you for being here and now I'll turn it over to our CEO, Bernd Montag.

Thank you, Marc. Dear analysts and investors, welcome to our year-end earnings call. Many thanks for joining. We closed fiscal year 25 successfully with a solid quarter and achieved our guidance. Growth came in at the upper end of our outlook range and we grew in all regions except China. This broad-based growth was fueled by healthy global demand and our leading position in the market reflected in the book-to-bill of 1.14 for the fiscal year 25. We are very satisfied with the performance in terms of adjusted EPS, which is well within the upper half of the outlook range. Excluding tariffs, adjusted EPS would even be above the upper end of our initial outlook provided back in November 24. I am also very happy about the development of our free cash flow throughout the year, improving our leverage to 2.8 times EBITDA. So we have finished this year strongly, as indicated early on, all resulting in a proposed dividend increase to 1 euro. Let me briefly also run through the highlights of our segments. Imaging, Varian and Advanced Therapies taken altogether increased revenue by almost 8%, driven by excellent performance in imaging with continued margin expansion from scale excluding tariffs. I am very proud to see that Varian, since the combination, has grown every single year by at least high single-digit percentages. The margin expansion in Varian excluding tariffs reached the upper end of our initial segment assumption of November 24. And advanced therapies contributed solid growth while keeping margins stable after a step up in margin last year. With a successful and diligent implementation of our transformation program in diagnostics, we have achieved another step change in profitability despite market challenges in China in fiscal year 25. And most importantly, We have prepared the business for future success. With this, I would like to hand over to Jochen.

Thank you, Bernd. I will start with some color on the strong equipment book to build of 1.12 in Q4. Book to build was again clearly above 1 in imaging, in variant, and in advanced therapies, which underlies the healthy growth trajectory. The businesses in all segments is well on track. Equipment booked to build in China continued to be around 1. Revenue in China also continued at around the 620 million euro mark in Q4, as in previous quarters. And there is still no sign in our numbers of a sustained market recovery in China. And this has implications also for our outlook. I will comment on China towards the end of my presentation again. Aside from China, we saw revenue growth across the board with excellent growth in the Americas and EMEA continued to grow on high absolute levels. I'm particularly happy with the solid revenue growth for the group in Q4. At this fiscal year, we successfully rebalanced the load over the quarters, taking some burden off Q4. In the first nine months of fiscal year 2024, we grew by 4.3% and then had a strong finish with 6.5% ex-antigen in Q4. This fiscal year, we grew by 6.8% in the first nine months and finished the year with a solid 3.7% in Q4. On earnings, the year-over-year margin development was mainly impacted by tariffs. Excluding tariffs, the Q4 margin expanded by more than 100 base points by the strong operational margin expansion ex-tariffs in the segments. Earnings per share, including tariffs, were at the prior quarter level. Excluding tariffs, EPS would be around 74 cents, i.e. growing by 10% year over year. And now let me run through the segment performances, starting with imaging. In imaging, our pet net business and photon counting CT stood out as growth drivers again this quarter. lifting imaging revenue by 6.5% versus tough comps of 8% in the prior year quarter. Imaging's adjusted EBIT margin in Q4 faced roughly 350 base points of headwinds in total from tariffs, unfavorable business mix, and negative impact from special items. The special items were headwinds versus the exit margin in the prior year quarter, for example, in the shift of government grants from Q4 to Q3, or a provision increase necessary for service field inspections. And now to our segments focusing on therapy, variant and advanced therapies. Since 23, variant has had a cascade of double-digit Q4s in revenue growth. Based on that, variant grew 1.4% on very, very tough comps. The lumpiness from prior year quarters is reflected in this year's Q4 growth rate, with very consistent revenue delivery in absolute terms over the whole fiscal year and over the quarters for fiscal year 2025. Margin development, though, is very good at Varian. Excluding tariff impacts, Varian achieved a strong 21.5% margin, driven mainly by favorable business mix. Advanced therapies showed solid revenue growth of 3.8% and generated a solid 19.5% margin, excluding tariffs on the strong level of the prior year quarter. And now let's complete the segment run-through with diagnostics. Diagnostics posted flattish year-over-year revenue due to volume-based procurement in China. We have already pointed to this impacting the second half of this fiscal year and that this will carry over. into the next fiscal year until the impact is fully annualized in revenues as a new baseline. This expectation materializes as indicated. Nonetheless, the margin expansion in diagnostic is still very well on track. The margin expansion benefited from a weaker prior year quarter. We said last year that the Q4 margin in fiscal 24, excluding negative effects related to prior year periods, was around 7%. Taking this into consideration, the year-over-year margin expansion in Q4 was driven by operational improvements despite a negative effect of roughly 100 base points from tariffs. And now let's have a look at the revenue and margin performance of the group in Q4. With Q4, we grew year-over-year revenues ex-foreign exchange each quarter for the third consecutive year. a strong testament to our revenue growth performance. Excluding tariffs, this track record also holds for group margin expansion. Year-over-year and sequential margin expansion for the third consecutive year. A strong proof point that operationally we consistently turn our strong revenue growth into operational earnings growth. And this brings me to the outlook for fiscal year 2026. We expect our growth trajectory to continue this year. In fiscal year 2026, we expect comparable revenue growth of 5 to 6%. As in the previous year, we have decided to be prudent in terms of assessing growth opportunities in China. We have been saying throughout 2025 that we need to see a sustained recovery to become more optimistic. We have not seen this so far and have hence decided again to assume flattish revenue in China for fiscal year 2026. Beyond this, we expect our good operational earnings performance to continue. However, in fiscal year 2026, we expect earnings growth to be negatively offset by the current macro challenges, particularly a strong euro and the tariffs. Including these macro headwinds, we expect adjusted earnings per share to be between €2.20 and €2.40. I will break down the macro headwinds and the operational improvements in more detail later, but first let's have a look at what the key assumptions for the segments and the other reconciling items are. On the top line, we expect imaging, variant and advanced therapies to continue on their growth trajectories. We expect imaging to continue its strong trajectory after 8% growth in 2025 with very decent mid-single-digit growth in 2026. We expect also Varian to continue its growth trajectory in the high single digits, as well as advanced therapies within mid-single digits. Diagnostics we expect to be flattish due to the analyzing of volume-based procurement in 2026. On margins, you can obviously see the headwinds from foreign exchange and tariffs in the assumptions for the segments. When you exclude the headwinds from foreign exchange and tariffs, we see margin expansion in every segment. For imaging, we assume that due to FX and tariff headwinds, margins will slightly decline. Those effects are even more pronounced in advanced therapies because of its higher exposure to foreign exchange and tariffs. We assume variance and diagnostics to face less tariff headwinds and no material headwinds from foreign exchange due to their different value-add structure. For variance, we assume that the underlying margin expansion compensates for the tariff headwinds, broadly resulting in a year-over-year flat margin development. And for diagnostics, we assume that the underlying margin expansion overcompensates for tariff headwinds leading to to a minor margin expansion. Below the line, taking the guidance midpoint for financial income and tax, we assume year-over-year slight headwind in financial income net. This is mainly due to refinancing at higher rates and a lack of one-off gains from fair value accounting of smaller venture type investments and from a slightly normalized tax rate. It feels like many moving parts, But if you take it to the group level, it is not as complex as it seems. Hence, you find on the next slide the main moving parts for EPS development from 2025 to 2026. I will talk you through the key effects from left to right. In foreign exchange, we assume a headwind of around 15 cents year over year. primarily driven by the US dollar depreciating with the euro and many other currencies also depreciating against the strong euro, leading to a significant foreign exchange headwind. For example, in Q4, the difference between reported and comparable revenue growth was around 4 percentage points, with the euro being around 6% stronger than in the prior year quarter compared to the US dollar. We expect the foreign exchange impact on translation to continue, with even more than 4 percentage points headwinds on nominal growth rates in our fiscal Q1 and Q2, where the weaker US dollar of today compares to a period of a stronger US dollar in the prior year period. And we expect a similar pattern in many other currencies compared to the euro. From annualizing tariffs in fiscal year 2026, we expect around another 15 cents of year-over-year headwinds. We saw around 200 million euro impact in fiscal year 2025 and expect around 400 million euros in 2026. Fiscal year 2025 includes the first mitigation measures like early shipment and lower tariff rates before the 15% deal with the EU, which have tailed off by now. Fiscal year 2026 includes mitigation measures like optimized sourcing, selected pricing measures. However, it does not include further mitigation from better pricing or potential shifting of value add. And as outlined above, there are three cents year-over-year headwinds in financial income in 2025 from one of gains from fair value accounting of smaller venture type items which cannot be expected for fiscal year 26. Excluding these three headwinds, we expect an underlying EPS growth of around 10% net, driven by the operational improvements in the segments. We expect fiscal year 2026 to be the year that will be most affected by tariffs. Assuming a tariff environment like today's persisting, We expect the impacts from tariffs to become less each year based on our mitigation efforts. We expect tariffs to be fully mitigated over the medium term. The three main mitigation levers are market adaptive pricing, tight cost control, and if this is not sufficient, shifting value add. With our global manufacturing setup and our strong footprint in the United States and other places in the world, we have all the means to shift value add if necessary. We are evaluating the multiple options we have and we will pull the trigger when there is planning certainty and if it makes, obviously, economic sense. Before I close, let me share our latest view on Q1. We expect revenue growth in Q1 to be below our outlook range of five to six. We expect imaging and wearing growth in Q1 to be roughly around the assumptions for fiscal year 2026. That means mid single digits and high single digits respectively. However, we expect diagnostic to be slightly negative due to the volume-based procurement impacts. Also, we expect advanced therapies to have a slightly softer start to the next fiscal year due to tariffs and foreign exchange. We expect margins in Q1 to be below the prior year quarter. And with this, back to you, Bernd.

Thanks, Jochen. This Q4 not only marked the end of a fiscal year, but also concluded the so-called new ambition phase of our strategy. We launched new ambition after the closing of the transformative variant acquisition at our last capital market day in November 21. After that, the environment became much tougher. There were unexpected macro challenges like the extended duration of the pandemic, the inflation shock, the supply chain crisis, the anti-corruption campaign in China and geopolitical tensions. Last but not least, higher tariffs came on top. Nonetheless, we have delivered around 6% revenue growth and double-digit EPS growth per year since 2022. And, what's maybe even more important when looking to the future. We have widened our innovation lead with breakthrough technologies like photon counting CT, our low helium platform NMR, and hypersight rapid arc and perfect kinetics invariant. We have grown our clinical relevance in cancer by combining imaging and therapy under one roof and being at the forefront of of Theranostics. We have increased our relevance in vascular interventions by developing new partnerships with device and robotic companies, and we are becoming more relevant in the nascent field of diagnosing and treating Alzheimer's. We have grown our C-level relevance with more than 200 value partnerships to date, a testament to this unique strength and new way of doing business and creating recurring revenues. We have further strengthened our leadership in AI with over 110 AI-supported products and techniques like Deep Resolve and MRI, which powered more than 30 million scans since its introduction in 2022. Lastly, but no less importantly, let me highlight the great turnaround our diagnostics team has achieved from negative margins in the year of peak inflation and supply chain disruptions They have taken diagnostics to high single-digit margins and they will not stop there. So, what's next for Siemens Healthineers? As you are all aware, we have our Capital Markets Day coming up and we have received a lot of interest in the event. We will present the next phase of our strategy and update you on our financial framework and the mid-term financial outlook. All our business segments will be presenting their growth strategy innovation roadmaps and plans on how to further improve profitability. And as a special highlight, we will give you a deeper look into our AI machine room. So coming to London on the 17th should be worth your while, and I look forward to seeing you there in person.

So I think it's me now. Thanks Bernd. Let's go to the Q&A. As stated earlier, we would like to ask you to limit yourself to only one question each. And if you want to ask a question, please press the star 5 on your keypad and then you will be put into the queue. Again, ladies and gentlemen, please press star 5 on your telephone keypad and we have the first question or caller on the line. This would be Veronica Dubayeva from Citi. So, Veronica, please go ahead.

Excellent. Hey, good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. I will keep it to one, maybe with the hope that I can come back again. But just looking at the guidance for fiscal 26, I was hoping you could both talk to sort of what gets you to the top end versus the low end. It's a slightly wider range than usual. It's obviously contemplating a lot of moving parts. So I kind of love to understand how you're thinking about it. And maybe at this point in time, I know it's very early, but Where within the range do you feel most comfortable? That's my question. Thank you.

Veronica, it's a great question. That's when you start off the year and say, okay, what brings you to the upper and the lower end? Obviously, conceptually, it has something to do with top line. Obviously, being more at the upper end of the range in top line helps you to get up. further up in the bottom line I think that is more than logical then you also know that we have a certain spread of profitability levels in the segments which can also make a difference depending on I would say how the growth trajectories will play out precisely amongst the segments and I think what I'm saying here is not a surprise if imaging is stronger relative to What we initially thought, for example, you see that moving this, this will give, I would say, a positive segment mix into profitability as an example. We have not built in, as I said, we have not built in any aggressive assumptions on China, flat China. If that assumption would be too conservative is a topic, yeah. um otherwise i think um i think these are the i would say the the main moving parts i would say maybe one last aspect you didn't ask about it but i want to still want to say it uh where we were very very happy what we saw on on variant you know on on the margin side yeah seeing that uh that the 20 percent yeah we were always guiding for over the midterm is is really inside yeah and you can see what a

large revenue quarter despite the fact that the growth rate was not super large can make of a difference yeah so with this back to you mark okay thanks veronica um good so we move on to uh hassan from barclays hassan uh you should be live now hi good morning uh thank you for taking my question um

If you could talk a bit about the contribution of photon counting CT to A, the imaging revenue growth in the quarter, and B, the CT order book, and appreciate it's relatively early in your lower price launches, but any color around existing customers versus competitor replacements on the order front would be very helpful. Thank you.

First of all, when we highlight segments or businesses or products in our earnings call for imaging, then they obviously grow faster than the average. That is the reason how we do this. That means molecular imaging and photon counting CT were highlighted and because they grew faster than the average and the average was already strong with 6.5%. On photon counting, we see in general an ongoing strong interest in the market for everything around this topic. I think when you just hear, and maybe that's even more important now, if you hear the buzz in the industry about this, every serious competitor is talking about this technology and that they want to have it desperately. But we are leading the camp by far. We have, as you know, the three product lines meanwhile out there and we have very very good price points in place meanwhile for photon counting CT and we are very very happy what we see with regard to the demand patterns and the demand patterns because we talk here revenue the demand patterns are not only order intake and backlog development they also transfer well into revenue. And that is very, very promising and very, very happy about this.

For many customers who so far have not been in our camps, I would say many, there are not too many, but because I think especially in the high end, we have also a very high market share. I mean, in general, it is for many customers of those who so far have not been in the camp, the reason to switch to our camp. This can be hospital chains, this can be academic medical centers, not only because they look at it as a CT scanner, but as a means to offer new kinds of care, the preventive um, applications of, um, early detection of coronary artery disease, um, is something the front runners develop at scale. Um, and there is simply is only one company you can do that with him.

Good. Thanks Hassan. So maybe also, uh, to add to that, we don't want to steal Andrea's show totally. Yeah. in one and a half weeks when we have the CMD, so should maybe look forward to some more transparency on that topic then. Going on to the next call online, that would be David Adlington. David, please go ahead.

Morning, guys. Yeah, just a question on China, please. GE's decision to sell their business there feels like a bit of a watershed moment. Just wondered how confident you were on the outlook for China isn't permanently diminished. And if we don't get a recovery there, are you still committed? So let's follow on from that. Do you see an opportunity to pick up share following GE's exit?

Thanks. So first of all, David, I mean, I'm not sure whether there is a GE exit. I mean, I didn't follow their earnings call, but from my understanding, they were very positive about China. But I'm not invested into them. So you need to ask experts here in so I take the question more as, you know, how do we look at the Chinese market? So, I mean, as Jochen said, there is basically two aspects here. On the one hand, we see in the next year no reason to go into the year with a more bullish assumption of short-term growth in While we are confident that the market will return to mid to high single digit growth rates, it is an attractive market for us. It is and remains an attractive market for us. It is a market in which we were able to defend our market share. So when I say defend our market share, while in the rest of the world we have a very strong track record of market share increases. In China, we are on the same level as a couple of years ago, which is a success since basically we are the only multinational company with the scale, with the local presence we have built, with the 8,000 employees we have in the country, which is best positioned to... to withstand the challenges of a bit of uphill battles now and then from a regulatory and government environment point of view, but also when it comes to the rising strength of local competitors. So that's basically the story. And I believe when looking at a different angle, you didn't ask, this way, but looking at the 6%, close to 6% growth we had in the last fiscal year, and a similar guidance for the current year, it is a message that we can achieve this without China contributing, which also means that China is important from a mixed point of view, but on the other hand, it's also just quote-unquote 12-15% of revenue.

Okay, thanks, David. And then we're moving on to Julien Roder from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Perfect. Thank you. Good morning, everyone. So my question is about the imaging guidance. If I remember correctly, I think last year you guided already for mid-single-digit growth for imaging. You achieved stunning 8%. Would it be fair that mid-single-digit growth this year is also kind of prudent? Just can you confirm the drivers, such as PetNet, foreign accounting, will continue to drive some growth? And if we can have any color on the specific growth you expect from CT and molecular imaging this year? I mean, are we talking high single-digit, double-digit for these two businesses? That would be helpful. Thank you.

Julien, first of all, we are very happy what we see in imaging. It's 8.5% growth for the full fiscal year. I think that is a stellar number. And therefore, you celebrate this, but this forms the basis for next year. That's always, I would say, the flip side. On the other hand, when we look at order backlog and everything we achieved from an order intake, all the, I would say, secular growth drivers we have in this business, and you mentioned most of them, and maybe you did not talk too much about MRI, which is also a very, very strong foothold for us, and with dry magnets and everything we will do there, I think we see also this as a very, very healthy growth driver in that business. um, molecular imaging with pet net, uh, photon counting CT obviously, uh, will remain growth drivers also for this year. And, uh, not sure if you listened, mostly you listened very carefully to what I said, but I, I even had a word in front of mid single digit, which, which was decent mid single digit. And yeah, we are very happy what we see. And, uh, Decent mid-single-digit means that we are very, very confident about this.

Perfect. And so, does it mean that Frank-Kantz and Molecular Merging are growing double-digit in 2025 and you expect it to continue into 2026 just for these two businesses?

Yeah, I would say, Julien, as Marc nicely said, we should keep some thunder left for Andre for the week in 12 days. But when you grow 8.5% and we highlight molecular imaging and photon counting, I think the math is relatively easy to be done.

Perfect. Thank you very much. Thanks, Ria. So going to the next call on the line, that would be Olli Reinberg from Kepler. Olli, go ahead, please.

Oh yeah, thanks very much for taking my questions. It would be on top line, if you could just unpack a bit the kind of 5-6% assumption for next year. I mean, I understand the kind of base effect you just talked about, and obviously the kind of China assumption, but can you just provide some kind of color, what do you assume on pricing, and in particular also on Americas, where we've seen very strong growth, if that is a kind of tough comp for next year? And if I may build on that, it sounds that on pricing you're not willing to do more to offset the kind of tariffs. Can you just provide a bit of flavor why that is and how quickly you expect this kind of tariff to offset? Thank you.

Maybe I start with the latter one. I think we are, since tariffs are a topic, relatively clear about the levers, how we want to offset tariffs in the midterms. And pricing and smart pricing was always a topic in this regard. But you might recall from the inflation times that there is obviously a time lag to revenue with pricing. And we also have to have this in mind. Therefore, we will look at pricing and our pricing excellence, our pricing sometimes we have maybe a bit more than excellence, we have also certain pricing power, will be a driver to compensate the tariff impact over the mid-term. Very clear message. But, and I think that's also an important topic, but we will do this, as I said, in a smart way, because we are very, very mindful about our market share gaining strategies, which brought us where we are today in imaging, where we are today in variant, where we are today in grant therapies. Therefore, we need to strike that balance. But I think we have a clear plan in and it's also built in to our 400 million net effect from tariffs this year. And with regard to, I would say, to the 5% to 6% growth for Siemens Healthineers, when you look at the segments, I think, The picture is relatively similar to what we have painted, what we have seen last year. And from a market standpoint, I'm not sure, Bernd, if you want to say something to the markets, or should I do whatever? Okay. I think we expect to see, when you look at backlog development, we expect to see, despite having tougher comps in the United States or North American market, we expect to see strong contribution from the North American market, which is very healthy, Europe is growing again, which I think is good. And we also see, I would say, very, very good development in APJ. And as we said, China, we have de-risked, we have not built in growth tailwind from China into our numbers.

And maybe some more comment on the healthy development of the continued healthy development of the U.S. market. I mean, we see that the technologies we provide are at the core of dealing with, of treating and detecting early many, many, many diseases. You can look at it in two ways when double-clicking on imaging. On the one hand, you can look at what's What's the growth of radiology? And radiology is a profit center for institutions when you look from a hospital point of view. But the other way to look at it is whether it is early detection of Alzheimer's, whether it is early detection of coronary artery disease with photon counting CT, whether it is planning... minimally invasive surgeries, a lot of new treatment schemes require imaging. So it's a business in itself, quote unquote, for our customers, but it is in addition centerpiece for delivering modern and state-of-the-art care. In addition, people continue to build out their ambulatory facilities. which means that there is also the need for additional sites of care, which triggers another growth, especially in MRCT, sometimes also molecular imaging, and also when it comes to the interventional market in ATP.

Okay, thanks, Olli. Maybe just obviously also have in mind that the pet net business is largely still a U.S. business, and that's been growing very, very strongly. So that also contributes to the strong U.S. growth. Maybe going on to Falco from Deutsche Bank now. Falco, please go ahead.

Thank you. Good morning. My one question is, in case the Siemens Group announces an exit from their stake in your company at their event next week, could you remind us of the potential financial implications for your company, if there are any? I'm thinking of the financing rates, for instance. Thank you.

Falco, I think I said that already. already several times, when we look at our financing structure, it is at arm's length, per se. When I look at if and when we need to refinance ourselves, I would expect us to be in a very, very healthy rating environment, and I don't expect significant impacts on our interest expenses just from the fact that Siemens may decide on their stake or to deconsolidate their stake in Siemens Healthineers. I think what we need to be mindful about is that we financed a lot of the variant deal at a point in time when interest rates were low, very low. And as you might know we have to refinance anyway independent of any stake development a lot of money in the next calendar year calendar year 26 more than 3 billion for example and therefore I think we will have to a certain extent if the interest rate environment stays as it is anyway to deal with higher interest expenses but not due to the fact that Siemens deconsolidates potentially This is a very, very minor impact.

Thanks, Falco.

Thank you.

Moving on to Julien Dormois from Jefferies. Julien, please go ahead.

Hi, good morning, Dan. Good morning, Yoram. Good morning, Mark. Thanks for taking my question. It's actually related to Varian. So obviously Q4 was a bit weakish and you explained that because of the comps and we see that probably the fading effect considering the strong guidance for 26. But my question relates more to what you have done at Varian over the past couple of years on reducing the lumpiness on the margin side. Do you believe there is room also to flatten a little bit the growth curve at Varian in the future? Or is it just the nature of the business to see that sort of quarterly lumpiness in the numbers of iron?

Thank you. Thank you. Jochen gave me a signal that I should answer. That is difficult for me. So, no. No, no, no. So, I mean, one topic is a little bit in the nature of the business and it's maybe sometimes also fair to compare the let's say volatility of the AT business and the volatility of the variant business. I mean, um, because what, what the two businesses have in common is that, um, um, that there is a limited number of units contributing to the equipment revenue per quarter. Yeah. I in both businesses, it's about delivering 200 units per quarter. I hope it's not a too detailed number here, but imagine something like this. I mean, AT is the smaller business simply because the average price of a cath lab is maybe just half of the average price of a Linux. And that simply this this lack of the law of big numbers contributes to is one reason for the higher volatility in the variant and AT growth rates compared to imaging where we just have multiple businesses contributing CT, MR, MI, X-ray and so on and so on where simply these effects smooth smooth out more than invariant. And what we got wrong also in the more positive outlook which we gave in the Q3 numbers when we were hinting towards, let's say, a bit of a normal or to be expected growth rate invariant for Q4 was the timing of a large deal which starts to turn into revenue. which is now pushed out by a quarter or will happen in the next quarter or will start in the next quarter. So you see these effects much more invariant. We want to, of course, avoid this. Over time, nobody is happy when there are surprises like this or volatilities like this. We still have the opportunity to further streamline the production. Yeah, we are switching step-by-step to a build-to-order philosophy. And I think another aspect which really helps over time is that the recurring revenue on variant is very high. So that also step-by-step, the importance of five Linux, more or less, yeah, doesn't show so much in the overall growth rate. On the other hand, I really, I mean, talking about Varian, I want to highlight still, I mean, while the top line was a bit below what we kind of guided for in the last quarter, profitability was really an exclamation mark, I mean, as Jochen said. And I think it's worthwhile to repeat that, yeah. Great.

Thanks. Thanks, Julien. So moving on to Hugo from Exxon. Please, Hugo, you're live now. Ask a question, please.

Hi, hello. Thank you for taking my questions. Quick one on China, please. I understand that the guide is cautious, and Bernd, you commented on the fact that for the long term, it will be an important growth rather than the less. Curious, what are you seeing exactly on the ground there? Are you seeing some green shoots, tenders, slowly but surely moving in the right direction? That would be helpful. Thank you.

I mean, not... What we don't see is the very clear green shoot. And as you know, we have clearly said that we don't want to base our assumptions on speculations, meaning at some point in time it has to go back. Because I think there was a bit of a learning curve As you know, and this is meant to be expressing our learning curve, or you can also call it self-critical. Two years ago, when we had to go in, exactly two years ago, when we had to give the guidance for the fiscal year 24, that was a month or so after the anti-corruption campaign started, we were basically our our assumption was based on the quote-unquote, or let's say our guidance was based on the assumption that something like the effect of the anti-corruption campaign should take six months, two quarters, and then things will go back to what we are used to. But that was an unsubstantiated assumption in which we basically were betting on what authorities are doing and how purchasing schemes will be regulated in China. We don't want to do this again because in this fiscal year 24 was on the one hand a good year for Siemens Healthineers because we could compensate that this assumption wasn't true. by stronger business in the rest of the world, but it somehow was a cloud over the share price for quite a while in that year. So from that point of view, we have clearly said we only change the assumption on China when we really, really see signs of a significant new momentum in the market. And this is not what we see. Otherwise, we would have not built that guidance or that assumption into the guidance.

Thanks, Hugo. Moving on to the next caller online. That would be Olli from Oddo. Olli, please go ahead.

Good morning from my side. One question on diagnostics. So there is the China MVP headwind which should be, let's say, phase out somewhere after Q1. But can you also make comment about what do you see

from an underlying performance for diagnostic if you exclude the head thin for Q4 but also what do you expect more from a regional perspective for next year thank you Olli I think unfortunately I would say your assumption on that this is over with Q1 is too optimistic why is it I think we will see impacts from this throughout the year because this is an ongoing process, and they drive this volume-based procurement through all the provinces and all the panels which could be affected by this. And this is an ongoing process. I think when we started seeing that this will happen, I think we talked about... one and a half years of impact at least. I think we said we expect to see this in the second half of fiscal year 2025 more pronounced and throughout 2026. And that's what we expect. And that's why we also guided for only a flat growth development. And when you look at the industry, I think we are obviously very much in line with what you see from others, even maybe slightly less impacted because our business in China is a bit smaller than some of the other main players in the industry. When we look at underlying other, I would say, drivers of our top-line development, I think it's definitely still the transformation, the transformation in what we call core lab solutions, which is the the biggest portion of the business, where we drive, so to say, the installed base towards Italica only. I think we are very, very satisfied with what you see on Italica, that the transformation is working well, but also, as explained in the past, by switching or shifting the installed base towards Italica and also winning new deals with Italica, We also look carefully into the existing installed base and there are accounts which do not cater, I would say, perfectly for what we want to accomplish with the telecom and therefore we let them deliberately go. Therefore, there is also, I would say, a structural, I would say, cleanup of revenue built into that transformation, yeah. From a market standpoint, I think we see, I would say, generally speaking, we see healthy markets in Europe, in North America, but also in APJ. I think the only exception is China.

Okay, very helpful. Thank you. Thanks, Olli. So we are slowly but surely coming to the top of the hour. Two callers on the line left. Sam?

um england from berenberg you should be live now hi guys thanks for taking the question and mine's just around tariff mitigations post 2026 if you look at the bridge you provided can you give us a bit of a sense for what proportion of the mitigations on that from price and cost control which are presumably things that are easier for you to do versus shifting manufacturing around. And then around manufacturing, how are you thinking about the decision to move manufacturing now? What would need to happen for you to take that step? And what sort of timescale could you deliver manufacturing changes?

Let me first say, as always said, we report out a net number. Because from our standpoint, that is the most meaningful thing way of looking at it otherwise you inflate numbers and then you inflate potentially you inflate mitigation measures and then discuss things it doesn't help so what comes from what I think when I would say the vast majority for mitigation comes also today from I would say smart pricing and But this will increase over time. As I mentioned beforehand, pricing takes a certain time before it finds its way into the P&L. What do I mean with this? You need to negotiate a deal. Then you hopefully book a deal. And then you have a time lag between booking and refrac. And that is on average, for example, in imaging, between six and nine months, just the timeline between booking and billing, just to give you a flavor. So therefore it takes time. And as I said, we are not following here a brutal pricing way. We follow a smart pricing way. We look where our pockets of strength are, where pricing excellence play or where pricing power plays a role. And we have, so to say, as a boundary condition for how we think about pricing is our market share gaining strategy. I said that several times already. Therefore, we are very, very confident that smart pricing or market adaptive pricing will be one of the main levers to mitigate tariffs. But it will not only be the only one. Tight cost control, I think we... I currently, and we will announce that and we'll talk a lot about this, about our new strategic phase in 12 days from now. When you start a new phase, you also look into your own house. You look to clean the desk. We look for a period of higher productivity than normal. You know that our normal productivity is around 5 percentage points of total cost and We have clear guidance in the team to go beyond that, also here for the next two to three years. And we expect here, I would say, the major things kicking in more in 2027 and 2028 as we have to initiate those measures and then implement. That's why we're also guided for a constantly lower impact from tariffs over the years under the current assumptions. And that maybe leads perfectly over to your other question, value-add structure shifts. There is still uncertainty out there on tariffs. We see that on a daily basis, to be honest. And making shifts is something we are happy to do. But we also need to be careful that we don't rush anything in this regard because these are major decisions. And we also need to be mindful where to shift to. Because you can also think about the United States, sounds obvious. It's also a very attractive position to a certain extent. On the other hand, you could also think about different shifts and think about other low-cost environments, which then maybe have a different driver behind. It doesn't directly reduce the tariff, but it offers you other advantages which fall more under the topic of tight cost control and so on. Therefore, we are looking carefully in it and we try to find a solution which is sustainable, which is long-term, because value-add shift is not a short-term measure and should have a long-term impact.

Great. Thanks, Sam. Moving on to the last caller for today. Closing it off with Richard from Goldman Sachs.

Great. Thank you very much for squeezing me in. So just coming back to market share trends in China, Bernd, you mentioned that you've been successful at defending your share in recent years, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the forward, if anything's changing in the competitive dynamics as the market comes back post-anticorruption. I suppose the context of my question is the result of some of the local Chinese competitors. It looks like their businesses have recovered ahead of the multinationals. And there's been some interesting product launches. So any comments on how you see those share trends evolving going forward would be very helpful. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. I mean, when it comes to market share development, I mean, just to reiterate what I said, I mean, we said we were able to keep our market share to defend it on the high level and also to maintain our number one position in the market. compared to the rest of the world, the gap to others is not as high. And compared to the rest of the world, we have not been gaining market share, but defending market share in a market with a different set of competitors. Now, what is changing in the in the Chinese market is, on the one hand, the effects of the anti-corruption campaign, but then, I mean, we talked about that in diagnostics, which is not your question, but, you know, we also see in diagnostics, you know, changes to this volume-based procurement. We see more and more experiments, and I choose the word consciously, to go with provincial central biddings. for healthcare equipment. As an experiment, this is also for the provinces a learning curve to go through because there have been provinces in which complete no-name companies have won some of the tenders and it was simply based on price. And now the question is, can they deliver at all? What's the service? And so on and so on. Yeah, so there is a learning curve. Also, an adaptation of what this means from a transformation of the business in this part of the market, which so far has been very much governed by using so-called business partners. So... But overall, from a competitive dynamic, what we see is, and this is a high-level statement, we defend our market share. The smaller multinationals are losing, yeah? And with this, I mean companies like Philips, like Canon. I have the impression that GE is also a bit weakening, yeah? while local competitors are gaining share from this. And I think that one topic is here that is really, really important, and we benefit from having scale in China, as I said in the question before. We have 8,000 employees in China. We are very locally present. We have 1,000 engineers. We have... We manufacture the vast majority of our products and for the local demand locally. And that is important to have. And if you are subscale in the market, it's tricky to maintain a position. But I believe we are very well positioned for the future. Thanks, Richard.

So... That basically brings us to the end of today's call. Thanks for all your questions. Thanks for dialing in. And obviously looking forward very much to seeing all you in person at our Capital Markets Day on the 17th of November in London. So bye-bye. Stay safe. Until then.

That will conclude today's conference call. Thank you for your participation, ladies and gentlemen. A recording of this conference call will be available on the investor relations section of the Siemens Healthineers website.