Thyssenkrupp Ag S/Adr

Hello and welcome to the interim report nine months 2022-2023 call. Throughout the call all participants will be in a listen-only mode and afterwards there will be a question and answer session. Please note this call is being recorded. Now I hand over to Klaus Ehrenberg, please begin your meeting.

Yes, thank you very much operator and hello everyone and a warm welcome also on behalf of the entire team. The conference call today will be hosted by our two board members here, typically available in our conference calls. It will be Klaus Keisberg, the CFO, and it will be our new CEO, Miguel Lopez, whom we welcome very cordially here in this session. All the documents for this call have been made available already early this morning. They are on the IR section of our website. And with that, I finish my housekeeping remarks and hand over to the two gentlemen. Miguel, please take over.

Thank you very much, Klaus. A warm welcome also from my side to today's Q3 conference call. Actually, my first conference call as CEO of Thurston Group since my start in June. After the recent listening roadshows when I got to meet some of our analysts and investors, it is very important for me to participate in this event as I would like to stay in close contact with you, the capital market going forward. That's why I would like to take this opportunity together with Klaus to highlight our management priorities and to classify the Q3 highlights and financials. For now, please let me start with my observations of ThyssenKrupp to date, as well as some capital market feedback that I have thankfully received within the last weeks. To make it short, ThyssenKrupp has a strong foundation that we can build on, but there are also clear challenges we need to tackle and that we are very well aware of. With regard to the strengths, ThyssenKrupp is a world famous brand with leading technology positions, a long standing customer base, and a highly motivated workforce. In my view, ThyssenKrupp definitely is an industrial icon as well as one of Germany's most recognized brands. As you all know, ThyssenKrupp is an enabler of the green transformation for several industries, a topic that is really gaining momentum and where we will take and enhance leading positions. On top of that, ThyssenKrupp nowadays is in a solid financial position, which founds the basis for transformation and provides flexibility to capture opportunities. On the other side, we have a complex portfolio with many moving parts in combination with slow execution in the past and a partial lack of transparency on segment level that makes financial modeling challenging for you. We have to overcome our cash generation legacy and close the gap to our financial targets. This impacted our shareholders as well because the returns we generated have not been sufficient enough. These observations bring me to the next page, our management priorities. The following topics are first on my and our management's agenda. Portfolio, performance, and green transformation. Please note that the details of an overall holistic concept for the group are in progress and thus are yet to come. We are working on this with full effort. For portfolio, we will continue to streamline and to de-risk the group. For instance, as current focus with regard to the evaluation of standalone options for steel Europe and marine systems, but also in terms of the exit of our non-strategic businesses at multi-tracks such as springs and stabilizers and automation engineering, and we will increase our efforts to speed up decision-making as well as execution. For performance, we are aiming for an overall step-up and a sustainable positive free cash flow before M&A. It is our mission to get there by continuing to leverage the strong USPs of our businesses, which are based on decades of experience and engineering know-how, and the corresponding rise in margins to benchmark levels, but also by improving our networking capital. This also means that we are doing hard work to turn surplus networking capital levels into cash. With such an enhanced performance, we will then be in the position to reward shareholders. And of course, this includes reliable dividend payments going forward as a clear target for us. With regard to the green transformation, I would like to start with Steel Europe. Here, we will continue to execute the TKH for steel strategy with our first DRI plant as the key element of our decarbonization journey. And we will capitalize on our enabling businesses with their leading green technology positions, which include, for example, our bearings business with their mission-critical components for the wind industry, Lucera as technology leader in industrial-scale hydrogen electrolysis plants, ammonia plants removed for the hydrogen economy and infrastructure, and also Polisius as a pathfinder for the cement industry to reduce carbon emissions by their carbon capture and usage technology named Oxifuel. With that having said, let us now take a look on our Q3 highlights. Overall, in Q3, we clearly delivered on our management priorities. Let us start with portfolio. Here, we managed the successful IPO of Thistle Group Nocera after an intense marketing process with the first day of trading at beginning of July. And please let me remind you, This has been one of the largest IPOs in Europe in 2023 so far with an initial market cap of around 2.5 billion euro and total proceeds of 605 million euro including the green show options. I can proudly say that this is quite a success story of which ThyssenKrupp will retain a stake of more than 50% going forward. Looking at performance, I'm happy to say that our Q3 financials are fully in line with our guidance, despite softening macro conditions, such as a reduced GDP growth assumption for Germany. Nonetheless, please note that our Q3 performance includes, as promised, a positive free cash flow before M&A And being more precise, a free cash flow before M&A came in at 347 million euro. Moreover, we are now in a position to confirm, and with regard to EBIT adjusted, even more specify our financial outlook for the fiscal year. And we also pushed ahead with our green transformation related activities, And let's start again with Steel Europe. We finally received the long awaited approval by the German government for the funding of a TKH4 steel decarbonization project of around 2 billion Euro. This not being just a milestone for us, it is also a very important contribution to achieving the climate targets in Germany and Europe. and it secures numerous jobs in the region. On top of that, we signed further MOUs for the supply of CO2-reduced steel with Mercedes-Benz and Pentala. This really is a strong proof point for us that our CO2-reduced products are well perceived by our customers and that there is a corresponding demand in the market. And let me also give some further examples. Nucera was able to sign another reservation agreement with a North American customer for electrolyzer production capacity in the high three-digit megawatt range for green hydrogen. And UDA announced a cooperation with BASF for our proprietary Anvinox technology the catalytic reduction of extremely climate harmful NOx emissions, and this will enable their customers to reduce greenhouse gas emissions even more effectively. And with that, I would now like to hand over to Klaus to give you more details on our Q3 financials. Klaus.

Yeah, thank you, Miguel, and also a warm welcome from my side to today's conference call. So I must say I'm very pleased to say that today we can present a very solid set of numbers to you, including a positive frequency low before M&A, and I think we will mention this in the upcoming minutes several times, but I think this is clear. With the quarterly achievements, the year-to-date performance is fully in line with and strongly supports our fiscal year 2022-2023 financial targets. And to sum it up, Q3 was another confirming quarter for us. We are on our way. Now, let us have a closer look at our financial highlights. On the top line, we saw increasing sales. This development, of course, is mainly driven by the material businesses, while the industrial businesses, on the other hand, recorded an ongoing robust or even growing top line. For nine months, sales came in at 28.7 billion euros, with a minus 6% slightly below last year, which is also true for Q3, that came in lower year-on-year at 9.6 billion euros. Before coming to earnings, I would like to remind you, as explained already in the last conference call, of our change in the special items guideline. Effects from the valuation of CO2 certificates are treated as a special item and are thus not included in EBITDA-adjusted or EBIT-adjusted. Overall, and as expected, EBITDA-adjusted and EBIT-adjusted were again considerably lower year on year, mainly by the ongoing price normalization affecting our materials businesses, namely materials services and cereals. On the positive side, year-on-year, we saw improved contributions at industrial components, automotive technology, as well as marine systems. With regard to cash flow, as Miguel has already highlighted, free cash flow before M&A came in at €347 million, an improvement of €758 million year-on-year. Looking at nine months, we even increased free cash flow before M&A by more than €1.8 billion year-on-year. This clearly confirms our ambition for the fiscal year to drive free cash flow into positive territory. Let us now continue with some further highlights on the next slide. Looking at our balance sheet, I can state that it continues to show a quite solid picture. And I assume this chart is quite familiar to you. That's why I would like to keep it short. But year on year, we gained 1.3 billion euros in net cash, resulting in a net cash position of 3.2 billion euros. We further improved our equity ratio to a very comfortable level of nearly 40%, and at the same time, pension liabilities were reduced by €0.3 billion to €5.7 billion. Moreover, please let me remind you that we own some valuable assets such as our stake in TK Elevator and our stake in ThyssenKrupp Lucera, which really is a success story. By the way, please note, that any effects from the ThyssenKrupp Nuseva IPO are not yet reflected in our Q3 figures. You will see the effects, for instance, with regard to our net cash positions in our Q4 reporting. Let us now jointly take a brief look into the group's Q3 performance. We experienced a decreasing top line year-on-year, with sales at €9.6 billion. Again, this was more a function of lower prices at our materials businesses than demand, With regard to our auto-related businesses, we recorded ongoing robust demand driven by the order backlog of the auto OEMs. EBITDA adjusted came in at 464 million euros, while EBIT adjusted was down to 243 million euros. In accordance with the top-line trend, the ongoing price normalization from last year's high levels kept dominating earnings development in this quarter as well. On the positive side, industrial components, automotive technology, as well as marine systems, could all enhance their performance from low levels in the previous year. Besides this, the continuation of performance and restructuring initiatives supported the performance of all our businesses. So far, FTE reduction is at approximately 11,000 out of up to 13,000. As already mentioned, free cash flow before M1A came in at 347 million euros, this encouraging uptick was supported by, amongst others, networking capital improvements on the back of inventory releases, mainly at material services and stereo. And for all overall cash profile, this also implies a more balanced free cash flow before M&A profile that is less back-ended flow rate. Let us now look at the Q3 earnings composition, namely EBIT adjusted by segment. As material services, the absence of record price levels from prior year weighed on margins and offset internal efforts to increase efficiency. As a result, EBIT adjusted came down to 15 million euros. On the volume side, we noticed total shipments being rather stable, supported by volume expansion in our direct-to-customer business. Industrial components increased by 8 million euros year-on-year, with improvements at both units. Bearings were supported by a positive one-time effect, while Competition, especially in China, keeps going on. Forged technology benefited from continuing strong demand from the trucks and industry customers. Both business units faced a higher cost base, which they counteracted to a large extent with their respective part-on efficiency measures and cost-cutting. Automotive technology recorded a solid increase of 30 million euros year-on-year. The favorable year-on-year development reflects higher customer demand, partial cost reliefs, for instance for transport and material, as well as price and efficiency measures. On the other side, there were also some one-time effects as well as an overall increase in factor costs, which both had an offsetting effect on earnings. As in Europe, EBIT adjusted came down considerably by 186 million euros year-on-year because of a significant reduction in spot market prices versus last year. However, more important for us, We saw a substantial quarter-on-quarter increase for more than 200 million euros driven by higher volumes, as well as a favorable cost development with further tailwind from materials and energy price levels that resulted in a triple-digit EBITDA per ton figure, again, to be more precise, EBITDA adjusted equals 100 euros per ton. Marine systems, again, could improve its performance with an increase of 30 million euros year-on-year. In that regard, the focus continued to be on performance improvement and project execution. and we could further stabilize the older and less profitable orders as well as benefit from the higher margin orders in the pipeline. Please also note that our order backlog stood at 12.5 billion euros at the end of Q3. Multitracks was broadly stable year-on-year, although the performance within the different business units was rather heterogeneous. We saw a decline at OODA and automation engineering, that was more or less fully compensated by an upbeat development at Pollutius and Springs and Stabilizers. And Nucera recorded positive earnings on previous year's levels. Last but not least, our headquarter and others slightly decreased by 6 million euros even here. Having talked about the past quarter, let's now have a look on our full year outlook with our earnings to cash flow bridge on the next slide, as you also know this. Overall, we expect an EBIT adjusted in the range of a high three-digit million euro figure as we see progress in performance and transformation across all businesses. With the fiscal year being well advanced, we decided to specify the EBIT adjusted guidance. In that regard, please consider that Q4 is mainly for seasonality reasons, expecting to come in well below the Q3 level. If you consider an expected depreciation of approximately 1 billion euros, you can also conclude a sizable EBIT adjusted figure for fiscal year 2022-2023. For free cash flow before M&A, we continue to strive for an increase to a slightly positive figure. Please let me emphasize, like in our last conference call, this target has our highest priority, and I'm very confident that we will make our way into positive territory this year, and we'll be there to stay. Let us now look into the details between earnings and cash flow. We plan higher investments year-on-year, including mainly non-cash EFS-16 effects. Investments will be above depreciation, as there are also strategic growth investments planned at all businesses. These, for instance, include investments for the first direct reduction plan at the Europe. Overall, we are closely monitoring our cap expanding and our steering with flexibility. Furthermore, we expect releases in networking capital, especially in the second half, which we have successfully shown in Q3 already. Then there are payments for restructuring, which will have an impact in the low three-digit million range, as you already know, and other positions include taxes, interest, and pensions. All in all, this leads to our target of an increase to a slightly positive figure in pre-cash flow before M&A for this fiscal year. The next slide also should look somewhat familiar to you, but in my opinion, it is crucial to keep highlighting where we are coming from when looking at financial performance in the past years, and which, of course, upside potentials are also ahead of us. Our financial KPIs substantially improved on the back of performance and restructuring initiatives. In the first nine months, performance initiatives accounted for a positive effect in the range of a mid-3-digit million euro amount. In addition, the largest headcount restructuring program ever at TK is further progressing, showing a fulfillment level of more than 85%. This all helped us to significantly improve both EBIT adjusted and pre-cash flow before M&A, In this context, please let me remind you of our mid-term targets, which include an EBIT adjusted margin in the range of 4% to 6% for the group, as well as a significantly positive free cash flow before M&A. Please consider that the mid-term targets are just a milestone on our journey. Beyond the mid-term, there are upside potentials, for instance, through progress in our transformation, also leading to much better operational performance, fixing on cash losses and multi-tracks over time, further reducing restarting cash out and normalize that still above depreciation invest level with the part of our cash flow generation in the longer term. And with this, I would like to hand over to Miguel again.

Thank you, Klaus. Please let me take this opportunity to emphasize the key highlights once more. First, our Q3 financials are fully in line with our guidance and as promised, pre-cash flow before M&A has turned sizable positive. Second, we confirmed, and with regard to EBIT adjusted, even more specified our full-year outlook towards the higher end of the guidance range, despite softening macro conditions in Germany. Third, we are fully on track with TK for H4 steel decarbonization strategy, as we finally received the necessary approvals for funding of around €2 billion for our first DRI plant. Fourth, with the successful Nucera IPO, even in a challenging market environment, we were able to further crystallize value. And fifth, there's a clear commitment to step up performance, explicitly aiming at a sustainable positive free cash flow before M&A, profitability on benchmark level for all of our businesses, and reward shareholders with reliable dividend payments as a clear target. This clear ambition will be underpinned by a comprehensive performance program to be implemented in the near future containing key elements such as further consequent optimization of networking capital levels, more rigorous focus on benchmark performance for all of our businesses and the application of stricter return on investment and value add criteria for our capital allocation decisions. For us, however, performance is not just about specific measures. It is also a cultural issue and a question of attitude going forward. The performance program will be an important element of the holistic concept for the group, which is yet in elaboration. And with that, we are at the end of our presentation. Thank you so far. And now we are ready for your questions.

Thank you very much, Michael. Klaus, thank you very much. And operator, please take over for the Q&A session.

Thank you. If you do wish to ask an audio question, please press star 11 on your telephone keypad. If you wish to withdraw your question, you may do so by pressing star 11 again to cancel.

Once again, please press star 11 to register for a question. One moment, please, for the first question. The first question comes from the line of Jason from Bank of America.

Please go ahead.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thanks for the presentation. Just a couple of simple ones from me. Firstly, on Nucera, could you just talk about the reporting approach? So will you remove this from multitracks and report it separately from the next period? Second question is one for our new CEO. Miguel, you've jumped onto a moving horse, right? So there's a plan. The company is executing it. Do you like the look of this plan? or should we possibly see some changes in strategy and the restructuring plans?

Maybe if I can start with the reporting of Musera. This is not decided at the moment, so most likely we will do something, but this is too early to say two very specific ones here.

Yeah, thank you for your question. So the way I look at it, to the first 70, I think, one days of being here in Tuskup, the CEO is we have three clear buckets of action, which is first, the portfolio, and we will continue on the portfolio optimization around steel and marine systems. Second, performance in order to enhance performance and look for the fulfillment of the capital market communicate targets back in 21. We need now to set up the performance program and we will and we are in preparation of doing so. And the third one is the green transformation I referred to in my presentation already which is basically, one, the transformation of the steel unit to a green steel unit, which has been initiated so far, and second, to bring, to shine all the elements in our portfolio, technologies in our portfolio, that help others to decarbonize their operations, like what I mentioned before, Nucera is about but also who the policies and, of course, bearings. So no change in strategy. It is to full speed implement what we have been defining for the group and with an even more clear focus on performance.

Okay. Thank you very much. Very clear.

One moment, please, for the next question.

The next question comes from the line of Bastian Snagovitz from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning, and thanks for taking my questions. My first questions go to Mr. Loeb as well, if that's okay. It's actually a follow-up on Jason's question. Just on the performance and restructuring program which you have mentioned, what will be the timeframe for the communication around this, and can we expect that even this year? That is my first question.

Thank you for the question. Yes, we are in preparation, and we expect that in the next months to come, we will communicate details around the performance program.

Okay, but that means that it could actually still be this year, maybe together with this full year of MS?

Definitely, it will.

Okay, that is a very clear message. Thank you. Brief follow-up to that as well, I guess as someone who is looking at the company now with a fresh pair of eyes, where do you see the focus for the improvements and do you in particular feel that Stihl has done enough with the recent margins which are not too far away from previous mid-cycle levels which ThyssenKrupp used to achieve despite I guess most of the competitors which have delivered numbers probably well above mid-cycle?

I would like to ask you for your understanding that I would like to, together with my colleagues, communicate the details of the performance program in a very complete way. I would rather not go now into details, if you allow, because we are developing this as we speak and we would like to give you then really an overall picture rather than some details here and there, if that's okay for you.

But maybe I can add something. You know, of course, the strategy 2030, which includes headcount reduction, which we are still in the progress to do, so it's not finished. And you also know the strategy 2030 program, which has to do with CAPEX, and here we are also not finished. So these two effects will, let's say, also contributes to performance. You know that this is as planned, not finished yet, but it's going to happen.

Okay. Okay. That's fair. Thank you. Then your very last question, actually, on cash flow, which remains the issue of the company. I guess you emphasized that a few times. I think you delivered very well this quarter. You seem to be very committed also for the last quarter and even into next year. But how do you look at capex? Do you see the current levels as adequate for the near and midterm, just in the context of still being around 60% above depreciation?

Yeah, first of all, this year I can confirm what you said. And regarding the capex levels for the coming years, of course, we are now in the process of doing our operational planning. And, of course, everything will be reviewed, but we are too early to really say what kind of level we are going to expect here. I mean, you know that we have some capex which we do into the green transformation. This is also very clear. We also have to do something with the strategy 2030. But all in all, we are not in the position to really, let's say, give you a precise number at that point of time.

Okay. Thank you. I'll go back into the queue then. Thanks.

The next question comes from the line of Alain Gabriel for Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.

Yes. Good morning, everyone. Just a couple of questions from my side. So firstly, on the multitracks, it seems that the easy wins are now done. And I do appreciate you're still in the process of reviewing that portfolio. But I think you've sold what you could sold and you've shut down what you could shut down easily. From here onwards, are we stuck with a recurring loss for that business for the foreseeable future? How patient are you going to be with that business? And Any imminent plans you can share with us at this stage? That's my first question.

Yeah, Naim. I mean, of course, we achieved something. This is very clear. You know that we are also in the process of having talks to potential investors for the Springfield Stabilizer business and automotive engineering business. And with the rest of the business, we are, of course, restructuring the business. And, I mean, you see already progress. if you compare the figures to last year. So we are in this remaining business also in restructuring processes. And of course, this is clearly the goal, not to have loss-making companies here very quick. Thank you.

And my second question is on the networking capital. The networking capital optimization appears key to your group free cash flow objectives, as you've just articulated. We can work out roughly how much you plan to release in Q4, but thinking beyond fiscal 23, how much more networking capital can be taken out of the business, in your opinion? I suspect there's a structured component to it and there's a cyclical component to the networking capital buildup over the last two years.

I mean, if you can calculate what amount we will release in the Q4, I mean, this will be something. This is very clear. This will be, you know, a high three-digit number in Q4. And, of course, this is our first, of course, with our restructuring efforts we are doing and Miguel is talking about, we will also have, of course, a closer look to network and capital. I mean, if we look at the end of this fiscal year, I think we achieved already something. But, of course, this is the target to even improve, maintain the level and even improve. To be more precise, we have to, let's say, wait on the elaboration of the performance program, as Miguel said before.

Thank you.

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to ask a question, please press star 11 on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from the line of Christian Obst from Baader Bank. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning. I have a question concerning personal number of employees. So despite the fact that you talked about a lot of restructuring and made a lot of restructuring over the last years, when I'm looking into the divisions, I see that almost every division added personnel over the last three years, besides multitracks, of course. Can you give us some kind of an idea why you added these kind of personnel? despite all of that kind of restructuring and performance improvement target?

So first of all, this is not true. We can go line by line. This is true for some of the businesses. And if we would look at a closer look into the details, you know that we, let's say it this way, we reduced our headcounts from 108,000 at the end of fiscal year 2019, yeah, to 97,000 all in all, overall.

Yes, mainly by investment.

No, not only by investment. You can look at material service and other things. So this is multi-tracks here, you are right, but in the others not. So, and of course, if we look at the reduction of personnel, we are also looking at reduction of personnel in high-cost countries. And of course, if we see, for instance, for marine business, if we, let's say, make further business In Brazil, of course, there's also an increase in personnel. And the goal is clearly to reduce in high-cost countries. And if we see an increase in headcounts, this has something to do with special orders, with special growth initiatives in not high-cost countries. We can go to this for one hour, and I could explain it to you. So this is clearly the effect.

Okay. Okay. Then I have a question concerning the status of the current transformation process, or how you call it, in marine systems, still Europe, and you do not mention automotive systems. There was the idea about the possibility to venture with a Japanese company that was canceled. Do you have also any idea for the future of the automotive business? What is the current status currently now at marine systems? for the next step or for Steel Europe? Can you describe to us, please?

Well, you know, the plans for Steel Europe but also marine systems are there and we are taking now actions around how to make this happen. Obviously, cannot talk about details here. but the work is done and is ongoing. It's a clear priority for the group. To me, the automotive unit is not on the plate, so we are not talking about this being on the plate in the past, and for me, this is not on the plate right now. It is focused on on the things that I mentioned and we mentioned before in the portfolio area, the two that we just were speaking about, and obviously very much in the performance and also in the green transformation.

Okay, thank you. Christian, when you refer to automotive, I think you refer to the automotive businesses within multitracks. And I think he is- Not only- Just to say, Miguel commented on the automotive technology auto activities, and regarding the remaining ones that are in multitracks, we can say that the M&A processes there are really well-advanced. Well-advanced. Okay.

Thank you, Klaus, for that. And Mr. Lopez, maybe. Last question is concerning you have a net cash position now, $3 billion something. Will it exceed or should it exceed $4 billion at the end of this business year? What kind is your position? Do you like to wait with that kind of net cash position until all of the big transformation steps are done, then the Europe marine system and so on? Or do you have some other ideas how to use the cash also for shareholders? Thank you.

Yeah, I mean, you're right. So the net cash position is going to increase. This is clear. And I think we discussed it several times. We do not have, let's say, an idea which is at the moment to communicate. So most likely we will, of course, let's say, see what will be regarding portfolio coming up. And you should not expect some major things at the moment.

Okay, maybe a last one. The current, what can you, what would you add at pensions to steal Europe in the current equation?

These are the pensions which are dedicated to them. I think you know the number. So out of this is 2.7 billion.

Okay. Thank you very much.

We have a follow-up question from the line of Bastian Szynagowicz from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Yeah, thanks for squeezing me in again. I've got two quick follow-up questions more on the business, and the first one is actually on bearings, if that's okay. So I was just wondering how your order dynamic has started in your fourth quarter, and also whether you see any risk to be drawn into the Siemens-Gamesa situation.

Well, we are not aware about our customer in regard to some claims or similar. So nothing received here. We are not aware of this. And of course, overall, the wind industry is in a quite interesting moment. So still challenging, but no specific items for Q4 so far.

Okay. I mean, if you turn this around, if you haven't received anything, I guess just following from what Siemens Gamesa has said, that they have cut off apparently one supplier, shouldn't this potentially turn out to be even a positive for you?

Well, I would think that there is so far not positive, not negative, so I would rather call it a neutral situation.

Okay. Thank you. And then my last question is, again, coming back on your decarbonization plans, and first of all, congrats for securing such a large number of funding support. That's quite remarkable. I understand that there are possibly some delays in the hydrogen project for one of your supply partners, I guess, with STIAC. What is the situation here, and how may that impact you specifically? Could that impact the part of your funding support which is related to the use of green hydrogen? If you could maybe talk about that, that would be helpful.

Definitely not. You know that we are in discussions with several, let's say, providers of green hydrogens. Of course, this is something you also know, yes, but at the end of the day, we are talking to many potential hydrogen producers, and at the moment, we are very comfortable that this is not going to be an issue for us. Okay, very clear. Thank you. For all the names, yeah.

Thank you. If there are no further questions, I will return the conference back to you.

Yeah, thank you very much, Operator. Well, we then also would like to thank you finally here for participating in this conference call, for being interested and for contributing here with your questions. Of course, as always, we are looking forward to staying in contact with you and are available for any further questions you might have. And with that, we conclude the conference call and wish you a nice remainder of the day. Bye-bye.