Postnl Nv

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the post NL fourth quarter full years 2023 results call. At this moment, all participants are in a listen only mode. And after the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions. Now, I would like to hand over the conference call to Miss Inga Laude, manager investor relations. Please go ahead, madam.

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. And thank you for joining us today in our full year 23 analyst call. With me here in the room are Herna van Hagen, our CEO, and Pim Berenson, our CFO. As usually, we will start with the presentation, which you can find on the website. And after that, we will open up for a Q&A. Herna, over to you.

Thanks, Inge. Let's start with the key messages that were operating in a challenging environment in 2023. In many aspects, it was a challenging year. The political and economic conditions were again uncertain and also had an impact on our operating environment. High inflation and deterioration in macroeconomic conditions put real pressure on consumer spending throughout the year. Combined, these developments negatively impacted e-commerce, putting pressure on the sector and on PostNL, leading to lower results than we had expected. In this environment, we took swift and firm mitigating actions throughout the year to navigate this turbulent environment. We took, for example, smart yield management actions, which included price increases, but also scaled our network capacity by, for example, optimizing our routes, by planning our fleet better with algorithms, by being very critical at our overhead costs and not filling staff vacancies. And in this way, we reduced direct and indirect costs. Last year, we announced the reduction of 200 to 300 full-time equivalents in overhead, which has been finalized by the end of 2023 with a positive impact on 2024. It was crucial for us to stay resilient in volatile times. On this slide, you find our key results. Some of them already published on January 26th, when we published our preliminary results. I would like to focus for a minute on the non-financials, And Pim will take the whole financial part when he presents the year 2023. I think important in the non-financials is our continuing efforts and also success in having consumer accounts in our app. You see an increase of more than a million accounts in the year 2023 to almost 9 million at this moment in time. And that's an important element because those 9 million consumers do give us the opportunity and entrance to their personal preferences. We also scaled our out of home options in 2023. And I'll come back to this topic later in the presentation because we do think that out of home remains to be important or even becomes more important going forward. By the end of the year, we had 903 automated parcel lockers, which is a huge increase compared to 2022, where we ended the year with around 500 lockers. We also opened our lockers to third party operators. Last point I would like to emphasize is, of course, our carbon efficiency. We're a very green company. Our carbon efficiency improved. with 24% of CO2 emission free last miles, and of course, a 10% carbon efficiency improvement on our own fleet. An important part of our strategy going forward. Let's quickly move to our business performance in 2023, and I would like to hand over to Pim.

Thank you, Erna, and welcome to all of you. On slide eight, we dive into the Q4 and full year financials. Over the last quarter of the year, we recorded revenues of $889 million, slightly higher than in the same quarter last year. We've realized a normalized EBIT of $77 million, which is 28% higher than the same quarter last year. The full year EBIT came in at $92 million, which was obviously already the number that we've communicated. by the end of January, which is 10% higher than 2022. Clearly, 2023 has been a year with very significant inflationary pressure. For the full year, we've seen 178 million of organic cost increases, which is really all-time high. And definitely if you compare it to on average 50 to 60 million that we've seen historically, that clearly has put some pressure on our margins. We'll dive into organic cost developments and product mix elements in the slides to come. Let's continue with the inflationary pressure. On slide nine, you see The buildup over the last two years, 22 and 23, in total 316 million of organic cost increases, of which 209 million has been offset by price adjustments, but that still leaves a gap of 107. What you also see in this graph is that the balance has significantly improved in terms of organic cost increases versus price increases in 23 in comparison to 22. And that's certainly a development that we'll continue to focus on in 24. Another element that is important to note is that from the 178 million of organic cost increases, roughly 70% relate to labour-related costs. So that's collective labour agreements, minimum wage increases, temporary workers and what have you. So huge organic cost increases that have impacted our 2023 numbers, and we'll see later on that they remain to be impacting also the 2024 numbers. Another important development is the change in volume composition. And over the past quarters, we've talked a lot about unfavorable mix effects, both within parcels and within meal. So this slide aims to explain a little bit better what the underlying developments are. I think it's important to look at the right hand side of this slide where you see that in the past, if we split the volumes into domestic, including Belgium, so that's all Dutch and Belgium web shops and their volume landing in our networks versus international customers. In 2022, 14% of total volume was cross-border. In 2023, that has significantly increased to 18%. And forward-looking to 2024, you should expect that to be roughly 20 to 22%. So a further increase is expected. Those volumes come from relatively small number of customers with a lot of volume and mainly the big Asian web shops. That of course comes in at lower average prices than the average domestic prices. And within domestic, we also still see that bigger platforms and bigger customers outgrow the smaller ones, also putting pressure on the average price per item. Within mill in the Netherlands, you see a slightly less exposed change in mix, but still in terms of volume is 24 hour mill becoming a slightly smaller part of the entire pie. was that product is of course significantly more attractive in margins than the non 24 hour meal item. So those two elements are crucial factors to understand. If you look at the 23 numbers and likewise important to understand if we talk about the outlook going forward a few slides from now. Then the split per segment on slide 11 parcels. Operationally, we had a very successful peak. Volumes were up 0.9%, driven by strong growth of international, whilst domestic volume was below last year. And as we discussed, we set ourselves up at some point with volume expectations. Volume came in at the lower end of what we expected, and that, of course, impacted the financial results in fourth quarter. But competitive-wise, In terms of service offering quality, we're happy with the performance of parcels in fourth quarter because it strengthens our competitive position in the domestic space. On slide 12, we've got the bridge for the fourth quarter for parcels. There you see the 24 million reconciled to the 23 of the fourth quarter of 2023. uh roughly one percent volume growth driven by international a positive price effect of 13 million was mitigated offset by a less favorable shift in mixed we talked about that within the quarter there's 23 million of organic costs and other costs and other results contributed to a better result as well if we then go to mill in the netherlands um Sorry, Norlast EBIT came in at 54 million, around 10% lower than last year. Volumes declined by only 1.9%, obviously impacted by roughly 19 million of mil related to the elections in the Netherlands. So underlying volume decline was around 5% in the fourth quarter. Revenues also reflect a moderate pricing policy and less favorable product mix. Illness rates were up, and as explained in January, that also resulted in a step up in the provision for people that are ill for more than 24 months. What is new in comparison to the January update is that you might have noticed in the press release that in the fourth quarter, there is a difference between EBIT, a normalized EBIT of around 3 million, This relates to a fine from ACM that we got from them on Thursday last week. It's related to the USO quality requirements of 2021. Clearly, we've argued that because of COVID and all the adjustments that we had to make to make sure that people could work safely and our staff went out for the rest of the Netherlands to stay inside, that those measures had impacted quality ACM believes that we should have anticipated COVID and as such believes that they put a fine on the table. Certainly we'll be objecting against this because we really do not agree with their logic and their argumentation. But that's an explanation of why there is a difference between EBIT and normalized EBIT in the year. If we go and have a look at the bridge of mail in the Netherlands on slide 14, you see the 60 million reconciled to the 54. Of course, you see the volume loss in terms of revenue, a positive makes a fact, but also there you see moderate pricing policy increases of 60 million. partially mitigated by unfavorable shifts, so that only 3 million additional contribution remains. Organic cost increases and other cost developments in which 10 million of cost savings have been reported for the quarter, which brings the total number of cost savings for 2023 around about the 40 million mark. Also what we strive to achieve in 2024. Very happy with the performance on cashflow. Full year cashflow came in at 52 million, an improvement in comparison to the 40 million of last year. Strict cashflow management remains high on our agenda. The fourth quarter brought in a stellar 143 million of free cashflow, thanks to our efforts to bring down receivable positions and to accelerate invoicing processes. Part of that, if you already have the cash, of course, that there is an element of phasing in it in relation to 2024 expectations. CAPEX was 126 million, which is 12 million lower than last year and in line with our assumptions. That's the cash flow. That leaves the balance sheet on the next slide. As we talked about many times within 2023, we did everything to strive to get to a leverage ratio significantly below the 2.0. We've ended at 1.7 times with an adjusted net debt position of 462 million. We'll continue to manage the balance sheet carefully with this leverage ratio in mind. From the balance sheet, we get to dividends. We'll propose based on the leverage ratio and our normalized comprehensive income at 52 million, we will be proposing a dividend per share of 9 cents per share at the AGM based on the dividend policy and based on the payout ratio of 80%, which is midpoint of the range of the policy. And I'm sure you will remember that in August we paid an interim dividend of six cents. So there remains to be three cents to be paid per share. Of course, as an election to the shareholders, whether or not to be receiving this in shares or in cash, if we get the approval of the AGM on this proposal in April. Then I'll hand it over back to Herna for an update on our strategic actions.

We find it important to shortly, of course, take a step back to our strategy, which we did present already a few times, and then look into what are the strategic actions we're taking in 2024, contributing to 2024, and what are the ones in 2025 and forward for parcels and mail. First, have a look at our strategy. We want to deliver distinctive customer and consumer experience. We want to maintain our position as a leading logistics and postal service provider into and from the Benelux region. Also, of course, we are emphasizing that the international volumes are important to us as well. Our strategic foundation is based on three pillars. The first one is parcels, which we manage for profitable growth. The second one is, of course, mail, which we manage for value. And the third one is the acceleration of digitization, which we find important to help us in our revenue as well as in our normalized EBIT by, for example, new revenue streams and cost savings. When you think about our strategy, of course, it pays out towards customers and customer value, but also social value plays a role in this, meaning wanting to attract and retain our people, want to be the best in environmental value, becoming more and more important by customers, not only receiving customers, also sending customers, and for sure generate a profitable growth and a sustainable cash flow. How does that play out when you look into parcels first? I think in parcels we took strategic actions in 2023 resulting in 2024 and of course also actions which will have an impact or positive impact on 2025 and the years to come. In parcels our aim is clearly to structurally deliver a return that exceeds the cost of capital. With the commercial and operational measures to which I will come in a minute, we will gradually improve our profitability to its average margin over the years 2019 till 2023. These actions lead to a first contribution of around 35 million in 2024. We still have strong confidence in the growth potential of the e-commerce market. And that strong confidence is driven by online penetration and retail spend. These are two drivers which we also used over the last few years to underpin the growth behind e-commerce. When it comes to online penetration in the Netherlands, we still see that the line is growing or moving up. And that, of course, underpins our trust. Together with, and that's what you see in the more left graph, When you compare us to the US and the UK, both more mature e-commerce market, there is still an opportunity for growth. Important in that confidence as well is, of course, the e-commerce market and the spend in the Netherlands. 2023, as said by Pim and myself, was not the best year when it comes to consumer spend. But also here, expectations going forward are slightly more positive. So absolute confidence in the growth potential of this market. To underpin the fact that we want to come to a return which is above cost of capital and of course with an increasing margins, our actions are action more on the commercial side. And I want to go into those first. Here it's finding the right balance between volume and value. For that, we started in 2023 to have a very targeted approach to the SME segment, where we see lots of customers, of course, needing extra support, different than from our big customers. And there we scaled up our digital services and insights, helping those customers to be more successful. And of course, a further emphasis on our cross-border initiatives to attract volume from Asia and Europe, where we do see growth already explained and expect to see that growth in 2024 as well. We're looking into which parcels can we attract with favourable prices and which we want to price differently. For example, heavy weighted parcels is one of the objects we're looking into and making certain changes. Important to us here is to maintain the number one in MPS as we are today. That's the position we want to solidify because that is a very important element in a customer's choice for the organization they work with. And keep market share at least stable And with the growth we forecast, of course, for the year 2024, we expect that in the international market, we gain slight market share from others. Managing the value comes together with strict cost control and network rationalization. And here a few elements are important. On the one hand, we're simplifying our products and services, which enables us to do a redesign of our networks. For example, the rationalization of our same day activities and Sunday delivery activities. We combined our a time-certain network together with our transport organization. And the integration of both organizations also gives us possibilities and opportunities to integrate the network further. And therefore, of course, also reduce kilometers. We're encouraging the out-of-home delivery, as we see that consumers are more and more wanting to have a 24-7 possibility to deliver and return And our parcel lockers are a unique combination for that. And of course, looking into our last mile, where we see optimization possibilities. And as said, already contributing in 2024, the 35 million euros. The story for mail in the Netherlands is not about 2024. This is a story for the year 2025 and further. And here we say we want to aim to consistently rate of to achieve a rate of return that exceeds cost of capital. Now, therefore, we need to transition towards an adjusted service level. The time has come to change our business model within mail. If you look into the external developments, we see a very strong volume decline over the last 10 years, 35% over the last 20 years, 70% of volume decline, which of course impacts the organization. Also consumers show a totally different need. We see a strong decline with customers and consumers in the need for 24 hour mail, 65% over the last 10 year. 10 years, the non 24 hour mill is relatively stable compared to 2019 because of, of course, the consolidation with sand. But the impact on 24 hour mill does have an impact on margin. And consumers in consumer surveys we did over the last few months also clearly say that they are very satisfied with having a two or three days a week delivery. And we see pressure on cost, mainly, of course, caused by high inflation, which impacted Dutch minimum wage and which is also impacted by the scarcity we see in our labour market. For the year 2024, we've put into place 40 million of cost savings. Those cost savings will not come from this change in business model. They will come from a further improvement of earlier started reorganizations and changes. And of course, our moderate pricing policy. After 2024, we want to change our business model. So far, we managed to stay financially healthy. That's what we did with the consolidation of sand, with the reduction of preparation locations from 260 10 years ago to 20 now, optimizing our delivery with peak and through days, reducing our sorting centers, reducing the amount of leather boxes in total cost savings of more than 500 million euros and still 40 to come in 2024. but the time has come that we're a little bit out of options. What we did see in neighboring countries that they already changed the USO. So they explored the possibilities. And we see that from a few years ago where everybody had a 24 hour service, except a few, we're now in a situation that most of them work, deliver within two days or within three days. What we did do over the last year is looked into several options like network integration together with parcels, like regional differentiation, like changes in our collection. The most favourable is changing the surface level. Decision criteria were, of course, people. How can we do the change without a too big impact are of course our customers and society what is the expectation they have from meal services is it operationally doable and does it have sorry the desired financial impact to cover our cost of capital and to create sustainable margin that's how we came to our most desired change and that is from what we do today which is when you post it today we deliver it tomorrow to when you post it today we deliver within two days and overtime within three days and of course priority mail next day mail remains to be possible at a higher price what we did do with the communication today is to set a very clear direction to keep our postal services sustainable. What is necessary for that is an adjustment of postal regulation. With this change, quite a lot will remain. What remains is, of course, accessible, reliable and affordable mail. We provide employment for thousands of people. Remaining is priority delivery within 24 hours when necessary. remaining as moderate annual price increases and of course focus on further efforts on cost control and modernization and innovation what will change is our service level to delivery within two days and overtime within three days fitting to customer and consumer needs 80 percent of consumers do say that when they receive mail two or three times a week, they're happy. It also fits, of course, to a labor market that is very tight and will remain to be tight. This gives us the opportunity to, of course, reduce people, fill the vacancies, and for the rest of the reduction, we can use natural attrition, and it is a potential for future cost savings. Necessary, of course, is a relief in the USO requirements. And with the publication today of how we see a sustainable postal service for the future or for the years to come, we expect that politicians, together with the Ministry of Economic Affairs, will start a discussion on the modernization of postal services in the Netherlands to maintain a sustainable service for the next coming years. Let's look into our outlook for 2024 and, of course, also a translation of these two strategic action stories into numbers. And I hand over to Pim.

Thank you, Erna. On slide 31, we start to explain the transition from 2023 to 2024. And there you see the 92 million for 2023 and the outlook that we have set of 80 to 110. quite clearly see a step up in performance in parcels, a further step down in meal that leads to this range. I think there's a few important assumptions to discuss. Again, organic cost increases will be high, not at the level of 23, but still 155 million is what we expect, of which roughly 130 million will be wage related. So the balance is shifting even more to wage related organic cost increases in comparison to previous years. We'll offset that with roughly 135 million of price adjustments, where the balance at mill is net positive. In other words, mill will put forward more price increases than organic costs, but at the e-commerce parcel side, that will still be a negative balance. And that, of course, is impacting the margins at parcels. We will realize the 25 million run rate cost savings of the reduction of the 200 to 300 FTEs that we've announced last year. And then, of course, other drivers related to volume, composition of volume and the growth that we expect on domestic. And it's the combination of the growth in the Netherlands and the growth in Belgium. We do expect a two to four percent growth, which is a function of roughly one, one and a half percent consumer spending growth, a little bit of online penetration growth and more or less in line with market growth. We don't expect to lose any market share in 24. double-digit volume growth on the international side. We already discussed that. So the relative importance of cross-border will further increase from 18% of total volume towards 22% in 2024, so another 4% point step up, which brings the total volume growth at 7% to 10%. Prices are up, but as discussed, an unfavorable Unfavorable development in product and customer mix puts pressure on margin. Anna talked about the adjustments that we're making on the network, and from that, together with strict cost control, we'll get 35 million of contribution. So within the Netherlands, we expect a seven to nine percent volume decline with cost savings within the year. And as I said, not related to the future changes of regulation, but just executing and creating the run rate implications of changes already made of 40 million within 2024. In more detail, we thought it wise to help you on a segment level to understand the progression from 23 to 24. And you'll find that on 32, where clearly you can see the step up in revenue driven by higher volume growth within parcels, of which the biggest component is driven by international customers. Negative mix effect, quite significant mix effect. organic cost increases that are higher than price increases. And then in other costs, you'll find the improvements that we just discussed of 35 million to change to the networks, focus on efficiency improvements, and what have you. And other results, slightly positive, which is the combination of spring, the integrator, logistic solutions, and some other smaller parts. Within meal, You'll see, of course, the impact of the volume decline with a slightly positive close to zero mix effect, organic cost increases that are lower than the price increases, and other costs that are, of course, a function of the 40 million of cost savings that we expect to realize within the current business model within 2024. That brings us to the outlook page and the quarterly split. So we'll expect a normalized EBIT of 80 to 110 million with a normalized comprehensive income of 40 to 70. The free cash flow between zero and 40 and CAPEX is to be expected at 110 million. So another step down. in comparison to the levels of 2023. And of course, we aim to pay a dividend that develops in line with operational performance. We still have to acknowledge that the external environment remains uncertain, but we do expect economic conditions to gradually improve over time, but still be challenging and volatile within 2024. Then beyond 2024, a few markers on which we will focus on. Going forward, we aim to deliver a return that structurally exceeds the cost of capital. At parcels, the growth in e-commerce drives volume and results, and we're taking all the necessary commercial operation measures to gradually improve the profitability. And as discussed, they are related to targeted yield strategies, rationalization of services, encouraging out-of-home delivery options, and continue to balance investments and working capital, as well as rationalization of the network to support more operational leverage. And in the base scenario, we gradually expect the macroeconomic conditions to improve. to improve, of course, exact timing and extent uncertain. But we aim to get back to our average margins over the period 2019 to 2023 because of the drivers that we just discussed. At Mail the Netherlands today, we've set a clear direction on how to keep the postal service in the Netherlands sustainable and achieve a return that is sufficient to cover the cost of capital. The service level for standard mail will transition towards delivery within two days and over time moving towards three days. That will allow us to take costs out and deliver a better quality. Adjustments in regulation are necessary, not for all the improvements, but important nonetheless. And we're committed to keep the postal network in the Netherlands accessible, reliable, affordable for all Dutch inhabitants. And on that note, thank you very much for your attention. I'll hand it back to Inge.

Thank you. So operator, can you please open up for Q&A, please?

Thank you. To ask a question, you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star 1 and 1 again. Please stand by while we compile the Q&A queue. Our first question comes from the line of Amy Lee from UBS. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Hi, thank you for taking my question. My question is on the proposed shift from the next day delivery obligation towards the two or three day delivery that you talked about. Have you initiated the discussions with the regulators on the matter? And should they have any objections to the proposal? To what extent can they push back on the decisions or veto it if that's the case? And Curious what the process there might look like. Thank you.

So we, of course, the publication we did today doesn't come as a surprise for our regulators. Also, the first remarks are already made by the Ministry of Economic Affairs that they understand that certain changes are necessary and that they start their own process. So that's one. So do we expect pushback? No, we do have the trust that the arguments we have in the changed, of course, consumer expectations, the changed market, the changed need for urgency mail, et cetera, et cetera. We expect that our arguments in the end also bring enough urgency to politicians. So what does the process look like? I expect that after today there will be quite some discussions with the politicians responsible for postal files in parliament and then this will be picked up by the new cabinet and we don't know yet of course when a new cabinet will be formed or will be in place and hopefully it has enough urgency to then immediately start discussing it.

Thank you. We'll now move on to our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Marco Limiter from Barclays. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Hi, good morning. Thanks for taking my question. I've got two. The first one is on your outlook for parcel volumes. which if I've done the math right implies domestic volumes as you say in the range 2-4% and international volumes let's say up 20-30% throughout the year. So the question is where do you get confidence that indeed international volumes will grow so fast throughout the year and this is not just let's say a temporary trend. And the second question is on what you have said or you have mentioned that you are working on integrating networks. Can you just clarify if with integrating networks you mean better integrating the parcel and the mail network? And if yes, I think you only have mentioned first mile and middle mile, why you're still running a last, let's say two separate last mile

networks for mail and parcels parcels thank you the technique yes okay now the first question marco uh thank you for your questions in relation to the international growth uh your math nothing wrong with that uh so indeed significant double-digit growth That is a continuation of the trend that we saw, of course, already over the last year. And next to that, I think there's also, it's just a limited number of customers that lead to this volume. And we've managed to convert one of the ones that we did not service yet in 23 into 24. that will other next to the kind of market growth component also lead to a little bit of market share gain in that international domain that together leads to the step up as you have calculated. So that is that is the answer on your first question.

Integrating networks, I think let's split the discussion between parcels and mail. So first to parcels. I talked about first, middle and last mile, because when we talk about Sunday delivery and same day delivery, that is a last mile network. Where we see possibility in the first and middle mile is in the integration of our time sensitive networks together with our transport. And when we talk about optimization possibilities in the last mile, We talk, for example, in an optimization and rationalization of what we do on Sunday and what we do for same day. And these are the examples which will have a positive effect in 2024. And we're working on other examples in first, middle and last mile that will help us contributing to 2025 and the years to come. It's not about the integration of mail and parcels, because that's one of the It's one of these scenarios we, of course, looked into before we we said, OK, service levels and change of service level is the best way forward when it comes to our meal operation. So we're not planning to integrate meal and parcels. And the reason why that in the Netherlands is still the most optimal choice is the simple fact that Netherlands is a relatively as is relatively small in square meters, which means that we have everywhere in the Netherlands are quite dense when it comes to parcels. Nevertheless, we still do 1.7 billion letters a year against 340 million parcels. So we're not at the point that it contributes to margin to integrate those networks. It will only lead to higher costs. And that's the reason why it's not a doable option at this moment in time. And if we truly want to come to sustainable margins, then it's the service level direction we have to choose.

Okay, thank you. We'll go back into the queue. Thank you.

Thank you. We'll now move on to our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Mark Swartzenberg from ING. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Yeah, good morning, everybody. Thanks for taking my questions. The first one is on the free cash flow guidance for PIN. Of course, you're guiding for the free cash flow below the one we've seen in 23. We have a little bit less complex in 24 compared to 23 probably also less Divi. So can you explain me what explains the gap a bit. Can you give a bit more color to the free cash for guys, please.

Hi, Mark. Yeah, of course. Morning. Thanks for your questions. A big driver behind that is of course the Delta working capital. We've done very, very well performance in fourth quarter, making sure that we collected a lot of the cash that was due, but also changed our invoicing processes. And that of course leads to a slightly more negative performance next year, this year, I should say. So it will stick. But the entire year, it was a positive working capital of 23 million, and that will turn into an investment in working capital for this year. So part of the overperformance of last year will stick, but part will be Yeah, as I said, phasing in 2024. So that is the biggest explanation of the reconciliation that you're trying to make.

Okay, very clear. And you mentioned also the fine from the ACM. Can you share the number with us? Is it payable in 2024 as well?

Yeah, it will be payable in 2024. It is 2.6 million. And as I said, the likelihood that we'll go into appeal or in whatever the legal term will be object against this is, of course, very high. Because we certainly do not agree with their argumentation. But it's 2.6 million. And what normally happens is that you have to pay first and you can object of appeal later. So you should expect this to be an outflow either in Q1 or just in the beginning of Q2.

And then all these potential savings you would receive from going to a two-day delivery and later on a three-day delivery. What would be the, because I know some numbers from way back, but yeah, volumes are now different. Inflation is different. So what will be the saving if you go to a model of, say, non-priority in two days and then later on to three days? Can you share with the numbers with us?

We will not share the numbers at this moment in time, Mark. because focus needs to be on, of course, getting speed in the discussion that we need to change. And we first, of course, move to delivery within two days and then over time move to delivery within three days. The reason why it's more efficient and therefore that we will be able to save cost is in the fact that we still, of course, deliver five days a week but will not come to every street five days a week. So we will move from now, we are five days a week delivery, five days a week, every day, every street. We will go to five days a week delivery for the urgent meal, and we deliver three days a week in a street. That optimization means that you can of course combine much more meal in one route, And that means that the mail deliverer has a more efficient route. Nowadays, he has only 50% of the houses where he puts mail in the mailbox. That will increase, of course, when you have more mail on a day. Secondly, it also means that we can make more efficient and more optimized processes in collection and in also the preparation of the mailbags. So there are several levers where we can reach higher efficiency in focusing meal and combining meal to three days a week. And that's what we said already a few times today. So it needs postal regulation change. we're not asking for a change of five days a week delivery to less lesser days. What we're asking for is to have an extension of the amount of days in which we have to deliver. So we would like to have a broader service level, giving us two days and overtime three days to deliver a letter. When you look into our quality today, then already today we will be able to deliver 96% of our letters. within two days. I think last to say about this is, of course, we focus on USO mail, but of course, we are gonna combine also all business mail. So in the end, this will be, of course, a change in service level for all mail we have.

No, very clear. Thanks for that, Helena. But it sounds to me that it's a multi 10 million service more efficiencies in the network, would it be enough to get the margin a little bit up again, or is it more to protect the margin in the mill business beyond 24?

Well, as you've seen in the bridge, mill margins and profit comes down in 24 on the outlook that we've given. What we've said is with the measures that we announced, we think we're able to stabilize the returns on mill at a level that is good enough to carry the cost of capital. That is... After 24, yeah, so taking into account the timelines that Hannah just discussed. And then it's not illogical to say that that should lead to tens of millions of additional savings, because otherwise we won't get there. And that's just by the function of what the elements here and I shared. So on the lower volume base, you can take cost out, you've got more. letters per stop. And those are the drivers that will lead to that improvement over time.

I think, but to be clear, Mark, we will not get this discussion going by focusing on our cost savings and on return above cost of capital. Although for us, the main drivers behind the change, that will not be the main drivers, of course, for politicians to change. There it's much more in the changing consumer demand. Therefore, all the consumer surveys we did over the last half year to find out what truly is what a consumer needs and wants, together with the fact that shortage in labour, we will be helped by, of course, bringing the meal together on a few days. It will help us to... fill in the vacancies we have, and it will help us to truly increase our quality. Those are the arguments which, as you understand, are probably much more fitting to politicians. In 2024, we remain to work in the current business model.

The earliest is next year.

The earliest is 2025 indeed. And that also means that the 40 million, which we have as a saving target for 2024, comes from a further improvement on already started reorganizations and changes in 2022 and 2023.

Very clear. Thanks for that. And maybe then one, if I may, that you also mentioned you want to get back to the average margin in parcels of 2019 and 23. That's just above 6%. What's the kind of timeline to get there? Do you need three years of mid-single digit volume growth? Can you give a bit more color on how to get there? Because that's quite a step up from here.

It is a step up. Of course, what you already see is that there is an improvement from 23 to 24. If you take into account, let's say, that the The balance between organic cost increases and price increases and parcels is more negative than in total because meal is positive. One of the areas, of course, is that we gradually need to make sure that the two of them will be better balanced or leading to a net positive. If you take that into account, that's already quite a significant additional step up in margins. But with the latest view on slightly reduced inflationary expectations and also longer term, slightly less increases in wage increases are expected. If you look at the latest view, that is an important element. Next to that, kind of the changes to the network that will make it more flexible and will help us to create more operational leverage whilst volume increases continue. So those drivers together will define the trajectory. We wanna get there as quickly as we can, but we're also partly reliant on the macroeconomic circumstances. So I cannot say two years, three years, our aim is definitely not to need more than three years to get there, the sooner the better. And one step is that you can already see, in 24 that there is a better balance between price increases and cost increases only not yet at the level that we need to get to so we'll need to progress that further and that's in our plans for for this year and next very clear now thanks those were my questions for now thank you mark thank you thank you we'll now move on to our next question

Our next question comes from the line of Henk Slotboom.

Good morning and thanks for taking my questions. If you don't mind, I'll do it the same way as Mark did. And one add-on question to start with on the back what Mark already asked. First of all, let me say I'm very happy to hear that you finally started the discussion on the service model in MEL. But what withholds you from, for example, implementing this model straight away in the non-USO segment, there's mixed consignments. You have three service levels there. You have a 24-hour MEL, you have a 48-hour service level, and you have the FLEX model. Hypothetically, there's nothing legally at least, withholding you from implementing that model, let's say, as of the end of the first quarter or something like that. And if you want, you can stop it today, I guess.

I think a few elements to your question, Henk. In the end, it is possible for us, of course, to start with the non-USO segment within two days delivery framework. So it's part of the possibilities we have. Depending a little bit on the speed of the discussions in Parliament, we can choose for that or not. That's one. But let me first try to answer the question. Secondly, if you want to do that change, it's not an overnight change. And that's what you know as well. It means that you have to change all your contracts. It means that you have to change the working hours of the people working for us. So it does need quite some preparation to do this in the right way. for our customers, which is crucial. Otherwise, we lose volume instead of what we win. And to do it right, of course, also for employees and to get the quality we want to get. Thirdly, we've looked into lots of possibilities, and this is, of course, one of them. If the time between the implementation of non-universal service segments to a window of delivery within two days, if the time is too long from your USO mail, then it's also not cost efficient. So the combination of the two is most cost efficient for us because we can do the change at once and prepare it well. If necessary, we can split. If the time between the two is too long, it's also, again, not cost efficient. So yes, of course, we will prepare, as we do always when it comes to cost savings, but if and when depends also on the speed of the discussion in Parliament.

Okay, that's clear. I believe you said in the presentation, your PM said in the presentation, if you go to a different service model, two days, three days, you need less people. Now, I can imagine you still have a lot of open vacancies. That's clear, and there are problems on the labor market, the tight labor market, which you're suffering from as well. But I can imagine that the unions, which are currently at the negotiation table trying to negotiate a new CLA for the male people, And how did they look at this? Because less working days means less people. Aren't you afraid that that is going to change the attitude from the side of the unions? FNV already asked 16 euros per hour. I understood that BVPP and CMV are, well, more realistic. Let me put it in those phrases. What do you sense? I guess you've tested the temperature of the water among the unions as well when it comes to a different service model in mail.

We do. To be honest, we don't expect that it will influence their negotiations in the CLA. And it also has quite some positives for unions to go to a different service level and to mention the positives for you. As you said, at this moment in time, we do have quite some vacancies which are structural. So it's very difficult for us to fill them. This model gives us the possibility to fill part of those vacancies. That's one. Those vacancies also lead to what we call work pressure. So we do ask people to do an extra round to deliver the mail. we don't do that once we do that of course quite often to be sure that we deliver as much as possible that in the end also has an impact on on illness rates and meaning that of course when you look into the model delivering within two days a week it will have a positive impact on work pressure and thirdly We've looked into, of course, how do we want to change and what is the speed of change and what is necessary to that? And we expect to do that by natural attrition or by far via natural attrition, which is also positive for unions. So there are also quite some positive elements in this change. And I think do not forget that in the end, the reality is that consumers and customers do bring us every year 8% less mail. That's one. And secondly, the amount of priority mail even decreased much higher. So there is an end to what we can do. And that is also very clearly seen by the unions. They also do see, of course, the deterioration of the margins of mail over the last few years.

Okay, then a question perhaps for Pim. Pim, if I look at slide 32 and I look at the organic cost increases at parcels and at mill, I'm a bit surprised about the overall picture. If I look at it, then it's roughly 66, sorry, two-thirds of the organic cost increase is roughly in parcels and roughly a third in mill, 60-40, two-thirds, one-third, I don't know. What explains that? Because I understood that the mill division is most affected by what has been happening on the minimum wage front. Apart from that, there are more people working in mill. How come that the organic cost increase in parcels is bigger than the organic cost increase in mill you expect for 2024?

Well, the size of the cost and the people working there is significantly different. So it's not only the domestic e-commerce business, which is in the segment of parcels. There's also logistic solutions. There's spring. There's different parts. Belgium is there, obviously, as well. So that is the most important explanation. And yes, a big Part of the 130 million, 34 million is wage, sorry, is minimum wage related. Let's say that's roughly 40 to 45 million out of the 134 of total labor cost increases. That is, of course, predominantly visible within mail. But let's not forget that collective labor agreement raises impact the e-commerce segment more than mail. The follow-through of NEA indexation towards delivery partners is certainly something that we'll only see within the parcel segment. So those are the elements that you need to take into account when trying to split 155 million.

Okay. And then a final question. That is on the delivery quality and the fine you received from ACM. I fully agree with you that 2021 was an exceptional year with regard to COVID. But if I look at 2022, the delivery quality was 91.4% and last year the delivery quality was 88% with 82% even in the final quarter of the year. Should I be afraid for even higher fines from ACM because 2023 You can blame the labor market, but there's no such thing as, for example, COVID, what played a role in 2021. What's your view on that?

Well, first and foremost, we split 2020, 2021 from 22 and 23. And exactly as you said, so 21 is, in our view, impacted by COVID, different ways of working. So that's one part. The other two years are really related to a fundamental change in labor markets that just made it impossible for us to get the number of people in to deliver all the mail routes. And we've clearly illustrated in numerous locations towards ACM with all the measures that we've taken to limit that number, that there's a clear correlation between the number of vacancies and the loss of quality. compared to the standard. So that will be our arguments to fight off as much as we can potential fines for those years. From an accounting point of view, we've taken a bit of provision, but I'm not gonna be too precise. I don't wanna jeopardize Postanel's position whilst that is still under discussion. Okay.

And the impact of capacity is much higher than the impact of COVID.

Yeah, I understand. But yeah, once again, the question is, how reasonable is ACM? And my experience with ACM...

And they put a fine two days before us issuing an annual report. So it's not about the reasonable. It's all about what are our arguments. Will they stack up? As I said, we will object in the best way against this fine. And then we'll see what happens. Of course, take an eye on 22 and 23 have provided for it. But it will be a conversation. And, of course, that ties into also the main topic of today. We need to get to that level, different service level within mail. And just to give you a marker there, if we look at 23 and look at, let's say, our within two days delivery, we easily exceed the 95% already. So it's not that the mail doesn't. come to the consumer. It is there, but just a little bit delayed because of the fact that we have too little people given the tight labor markets. So they're the two elements find each other in today's storyline.

Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you. We have time for one more question. Our final question comes from the line of Marco Limite from Barclays. Please go ahead. Your line is open.

Hi. Good morning again. I've got a few follow-up questions, please. So the first one, if you could give us a bit of color on the exit rates in terms of partial volume growth in January and February. The second question is actually back on the USO reform. So do I get this right that you see beyond 2024 very limited scope for further cost savings and therefore in a scenario where the USO reform takes longer than expected, basically in 2025 you will be in a situation where you cannot cut costs much more or you can get much more cost savings on top of what you have done over the last few years. And the third quick question, if I may, yeah, you have got out free cash flow guidance for 2024. I think that, you know, assuming a broadly stable dividend next year versus this year, you will have 50 million of cash outflow. So probably the free cash flow won't cover the dividend payment next year. And I think we also have got some bonds to be repaid or to be rolled over in 2024. So, yeah, generally, overall, how confident you are on your, let's say, credit position. Thank you.

Let me first answer your question on the USO reform, and then we do the other two. Doesn't mean that we do not have anything in our back pocket for 2025. The answer is, of course, no. We're already restructuring that company for the last 15 years. So that doesn't stop as of 31 of December 2024. That's one. Secondly, and that was also highlighted by Henk. There is a possibility to do, of course, business mail earlier than USO mail and bring business mail to within two days delivery framework. That's also and always an opportunity or possibility we have. So we're not looking that black to 2025 as you phrase it. But we do want to emphasize and that's the reason why we start the discussion today to be in time. on the changes necessary for long-term sustainable mail delivery in the Netherlands.

On your question on exit rates, if we look at Gen and Fab volumes, they are in line with expectations. So in line with the growth rates that we've set for the entire year. So looking... uh in line with plan both in terms of um what we did expect for those months and in terms of composition of that volume which as you realize uh is important as well so that is that is that on free cash flow guidance yes some a lot of things will happen below the free cash flow line Dividend is one, but of course, let's say the full year dividend over the book year 2024 is only partially paid within the year and there will be indeed refinancing. We've got a bond that terminates in November of this year. And of course, we will be looking at the most efficient way to refinance, knowing the current cash position, knowing our cash flow expectations. We're preparing that and we still believe that there is a good market with solid credit rating that we still have to refinance against favorable terms so i'm not worried about that we have started the preparations and i'm sure we will be able to do that in an appropriate way thank you very much thank you

Due to time constraints, this concludes our question and answer session. So I'll hand the call back to Miss Laudy for closing remarks.

So thank you all for listening. If you have any further questions, please reach out to us. And thank you for today. Enjoy your day.