Koninklijke Vopak Uns/Adr

Hello, and welcome to the OPAC Q1 2024 results. My name is George. I'll be the coordinator for today's event. Please note, this conference is being recorded and for the duration of the call, you'll be in the listen-only mode. However, you will have the opportunity to ask questions at the end of the presentation. This can be done by pressing star 1 on your telephone keypad to register your question. If you require assistance at any point, please press star 0 and you will be connected to an operator. I'd like to hand it over to your host today, Ms. Fathiona Tocciu, Head of IR. Please go ahead.

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our Q124 Results Analyst Call. My name is Fathiona Tocciu, Head of IR. Today, our CEO, Dick Rischel, and CFO, Mihail Yeltsin, will guide you through our latest results. We will refer to Q124 Analyst Presentation, which you can follow on screen and download from our website. After the presentation, we will have the opportunity for the Q&A. A replay of the webcast will be made available on our website. Before we start, I would like to refer to the disclaimer content on the forward-looking statement, which you are familiar with. I would like to remind you that we may make forward-looking statements during the presentation, which involves certain risks and uncertainties. Accordingly, this is applicable to the entire call, including the answers provided to questions during the Q&A part. With that, I would like to hand over the call to this.

Thank you very much, Fatjona, and a very good morning to all of you joining us in the call. Let's move to slide four and moving into the key highlights of Q1 2024. We delivered on our strategy to improve our financial and sustainability performance, to grow our base in industrial and gas terminals, and to accelerate towards new energies and sustainable feedstocks. Let me give you some highlights of the different elements of our strategy. The need for our services remains strong across the portfolio, reaching a proportional occupancy of 93% as we continue to serve our customers well. We reported improved financial results, growing our proportional EBITDA by 9% when adjusted for the divestment impact. Also, our operating cash return improved significantly, from 15.4% last year to 17% at the end of this quarter, driven by a lower average capital employed due to the divestments and a positive contribution from growth projects. Our strong business performance led us to increase our full year 24 outlook for both proportional EBITDA and reported EBITDA, which Michiel will further explain. Let's take a look at growth. We are solidifying our leading position in India with the acquisition of a new terminal in Mangalore, the east coast of the country. The terminal with a capacity of 44,000 cubic meters is a good addition to our extensive footprint in the fast-growing economy of India. Also in Western Canada, together with our joint venture partner, Altagas, we're making good progress in our development of a greenfield LPG export facility. FID is expected in the first half of this year. Now let's move to accelerating towards new energies and sustainable feedstocks. During the first quarter, we commissioned repurposed infrastructure in Singapore for blending biofuels into marine fuels. This is an important first step at our Sabah Rock terminal to be a sustainable multi-fuels hub in the future. At the same time, we're making good progress in Vlaardingen, the Netherlands, to repurpose another 34,000 cubic meters of existing infrastructure for biofuel feedstocks. Also in Brazil, 30,000 cubic meters of capacity is being repurposed for sustainable transportation fuels. In Singapore, we successfully completed our first ammonia bunkering operation together with our partners at our Banyan terminal. These developments fit well in our strategy to accelerate towards new energies and sustainable feedstocks. Moving on to some of the dynamics of the key markets in which we operate. and how they impact the demand for our infrastructure services. Let's start with the gas markets. We saw continued high utilization of our LNG infrastructure, and LPG demand is growing around the world, driven by petrochemical and residential demand. Given the take-or-pay nature of our contracts, the financial performance in this segment was relatively stable, while spec in Colombia contributed positively. For new energies and sustainable feedstocks, we see continued momentum for infrastructure that supports low-carbon products. The pipeline for CO2 and ammonia projects continues to be solid. Energy markets were relatively stable. There's a continued healthy demand for infrastructure due to ongoing rebalancing of trade flows around the world. Our oil hub terminals in Singapore, Fujairah, and Rotterdam continue to have a strong demand. Finally, manufacturing markets, served by chemical distribution terminals. They still experience some pressure. Impact so far on our terminals is limited, but remains uncertain in the remainder of the year. The industrial terminal segment, predominantly served by long-term take-up pay contracts, showed a stable performance. Now let me take you through the different elements of our business performance in more detail. Compared to the same quarter last year, we experienced a negative currency translation effect of €5 million and a divestment impact of €21 million. The oil markets, as I said, remained favourable in the first quarter of this year. High occupancy rates and contract renewals drove the growth in EBITDA from our oil portfolio across the globe, especially in the oil hubs in Rotterdam, Fujairah and Singapore Straits. Chemical markets remain characterised by the oversupply of end products. throughput levels in our industrial terminals remained solid. And our terminals storing LNG and LPG saw increasing revenues, mainly in the Netherlands and Spec Colombia. Expenses in the first quarter were slightly higher than in Q1 last year, mainly due to increased personnel costs. Growth projects contributed positively to our results compared to last year, with a contribution of 18 million euros on a proportional basis, driven by projects in the Netherlands and the United States. All in all, this resulted in a proportional EBITDA of €298 million, and when adjusted for the divestment impact, as mentioned, this is a 9% increase compared to the first quarter of 2023. As mentioned before, next to improving the financial performance of our portfolio, we keep focusing on improving our sustainability performance as well. We have an absolute reduction target for our scope one and two emissions for 2030, which is a 30% reduction compared to our baseline year of 2021. And it includes the additional emissions as a result of growth projects. By the end of 23, we realized a reduction of 25%. Increasing the share of renewable energy is one of the lines of action that we have in order to decarbonize our existing and future operation. One important way to do so is electrification of our operations and by acquiring renewable electricity. This year, we were able to switch four terminals in the United States to 100% renewable electricity, bringing the total number of terminals using renewable electricity to 35 in the portfolio. Let's move to India. Because together with AGES, our joint venture partner, we are growing rapidly in India, storing mainly liquid products in LPG, supporting the economic growth and making alternative lower carbon fuels available throughout the country. Our joint venture was established in the middle of 22 with a capacity of 1.3 million cubic meters in five strategic locations. A significant number of FIDs was taken to further grow our footprint. And currently, we are expanding in five locations, in both capacity for liquid products as well as for gas. Today, we announced another acquisition in Mangalore, a terminal with a capacity of 44,000 cubic meters will be added to the network. With all these expansions and acquisitions, our capacity in India is expected to grow to 1.8 million cubic meters in 2025. With regards to our third pillar of our strategy, accelerate towards new energies and sustainable fuels and feedstocks, we see good momentum around the world. After repurposing capacity in the US, the Netherlands and Singapore, we're also progressing well in repurposing capacity in Brazil and the Netherlands. With this repurposed capacity, we are well positioned to help our customers to store low carbon fuels and feedstocks. In Antwerp, we're making good progress in cleaning up our new strategic plot of land to redevelop the site to support new energy infrastructure investments. In the field of electricity storage, we announced an investment of 9 million euro in two battery systems close to Houston with a capacity of 10 and 20 megawatt hours. These developments fit well in our strategy to accelerate the investments for infrastructure in new energies and sustainable feedstocks. Now let's take a look at our cash generation, because the cash generation in this portfolio, in the portfolio for this quarter was strong. We further strengthened the balance sheet with a leverage of 1.76 times total net debt to EBITDA. We are returning value to shareholders by increasing the dividend to €1.50 per share And we are progressing well in our share buyback program, of which around 30% has been completed so far. We're well positioned for future growth with a healthy pipeline of projects for both strategic levers to grow in industrial and gas terminals and to accelerate towards new energies and sustainable feedstocks. We confirm our consolidated growth outlook of investing around 300 million euro this year. with attractive and accretive returns. To summarize, we delivered another strong quarter. We reported improved financial results on the back of favorable market conditions and high occupancy. We create connections through our well-diversified global portfolio by growing our base in India and making good progress on repurposing existing capacity for low-carbon fuels and feedstocks. Our well-diversified terminal portfolio is supporting energy security and energy transition. And we drive progress as we capture the opportunities of the energy transition. As a result of all of the above, we create and return value to our shareholders. With that, I want to hand over to our CFO, Michiel Geelzing, who will give you more insights on the financial aspects of this first quarter. Michiel.

Thank you, Dick, and good morning to everyone in the call from my side as well. Let me first start on delivering our shaping of the future strategy. Let me take you through our financial results of the first quarter in a bit more detail. I will first give some more insight in our performance in Q1, then discuss our strong, stable and long-term cash flow generation and our long-term fundamentals, including our increased outlook. To start off with the financial performance for the first quarter of this year compared to Q1 2023. Proportional EBITDA grew adjusted for divestments with €25 million, a 9% increase compared to last year, driven by contributions from growth projects and better organic business performance. On a consolidated basis, EBITDA grew by €7 million, a 3% increase backed by favorable storage demand. As you can see, the proportional occupancy remained high at a level of 93%, which reflects a solid demand for our business. Looking at the proportional operating cash return, we achieved an OCR of 17%, a 1.6 percentage point increase compared to last year's first quarter, driven by a lower average capital employed due to the divestments and contribution of growth projects on the other hand. If we zoom in on the quarter compared to fourth quarter of last year, we see a higher proportional occupancy rate at 93%, a 2% point increase compared to Q4. This increase is related to the reduction of the base capacity in Europort by around 380,000 cubic meters in line with our previously announced ambition to gradually reduce oil capacity there in order to accelerate towards new energies and sustainable feedstocks. Revenues adjusted for divestment remain stable. And with regards to operating expenses, we see a decrease of 15% compared to the previous quarter adjusted for the divestment impact. Proportional EBITDA increased by 10% when adjusted for a 12 million euro divestment impact. A closer look at the performance of the business units, which shows a continuing trend of improvement across the regions. Adjusting the first quarter of 2023 for the divestment impact of €21 million, we had a positive trend across all business units. The stable performance in Asia business units driven by the good performance in our oil and gas terminals. The Netherlands saw improved performance, especially in Rotterdam. And in Q1 2024, growth projects had a positive contribution of €18 million on a proportional basis from projects in the United States and the Netherlands. Adjusted for divestments, this is an improvement of €25 million, similar to a 9% increase year-on-year. All in all, we experience a robust demand for our services, driven by an increased demand for energy and continued rebalancing trade flows around the world. Moving to the cash flow generation. Our cash flow generation continued to be strong in the first quarter of 2024, driven by a positive business performance. We generated 276 million euro, which is mainly driven by the joint venture dividends, as well as cash generated by the group companies. Due to a timing effect between declaring and paying out the dividend, the cash inflows from dividends were significantly higher this quarter. After tax payments, derivatives impact and other cash flow from investing and financing activities, we had 190 million euro cash flow from operations. This is the available cash flow that we can allocate towards operating CAPEX, which is our license to operate, growth CAPEX and shareholder returns. As you can see, the business is able to self-fund the needs for the mentioned elements. dividends paid to shareholders will be paid in the second quarter of this year, which will be visible in our half-year results. Looking at the net cash flow, it is good to mention that it's partly used to execute the share buyback program, which we are executing at the moment. The strong cash flow generation led to an increase of proportional operating cash flow per share to €1.83. The balance sheet was further strengthening resulting in a total net debt to EBITDA of 1.76 times. Going forward, obviously, it is very important for us to maintain this healthy cash flow overview to make sure that we are, to a large extent, self-sufficient and are not rapidly increasing our leverage. As Dick mentioned it already, we are increasing our full year 2024 outlook, and I want to give some more detail on the drivers behind this. We see strong market indicators and favorable demand for our storage infrastructure. Together with a solid business performance, we continue to focus on improving our results. And thirdly, growth projects will contribute to our results in the quarters to come. Our strong performance and strategy execution coupled with favorable market conditions positions as well to revise our outlook for full year 2024 awards. We increased the proportional EBITDA outlook to a range of 1.14 to 1.18 billion euro for the full year. And the consolidated EBITDA range is increased to 900 to 940 million euro for the full year 2024. Looking at the overall outlook, other elements remain unchanged. Consolidated growth CAPEX is still expected to be around 300 million euro, And with regards to consolidated operating capex, this will be around €230 million. On the longer term, our proportional operating cash return to be above 12%, which we believe is a healthy return for our type of business under different market circumstances. Our commitment to invest €1 billion in industrial and gas terminals and €1 billion to accelerate towards new energies and sustainable feedstocks towards 2030 remains unchanged as well. Our leverage ratio remains 2.5 to 3 times EBITDA as a management range and our dividend policy remains unchanged. Bringing it all together, we delivered on our financial performance, Despite divestments, our assets generate strong, stable, and long-term cash flows. With our well-diversified portfolio in terms of the products we store in the geographies we operate, we are able to create connections. And we are driving progress via our capabilities to capture new opportunities and growth investments. These factors combined create value to our stakeholders. And this concludes my remarks in the presentation. And I would like to hand it back to Dick for the Q&A.

Thanks, Michiel. And with that, I would like to ask the operator to please open the line for Q&A.

Most certainly, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you wish to ask any questions, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. And just make sure your mute function is not activated. It allows you to reach your equipment. Our very first question today is coming from David Kirsten, calling from Jefferies. Please go ahead.

David, your line is open.

Sir, could you please ask your question? Apologies, I was on mute. Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody. I've got a couple of questions. First of all, please, on the dividend facing that you mentioned, you had a strong increase I think up to 123 million from dividends. Is that related to the one-off payment you received from the joint venture in Pengarang? And how does that facing move in the coming quarters? Will that be offset in Q2? Then on the second point, you had a strong contribution from a new capacity of 18 million. I was wondering if you could quantify what the impact was of the acquisition of the 50% stake in the Ames Energy Terminal And then I had a question on the robust demand for oil storage that you're talking about as a result of the rebalancing of trade flows. How much longer do you expect that effect to continue? And is there any positive impact on the disruption in the Red Sea on the occupancy in the terminals in Fujawa? And maybe finally on the Europort capacity reduction, is it

is that only impacting your occupancy rate or are there also other accounting effects is it still in your invested capital the the 380 000 cubic meters thanks very much um david hi good morning um i'll i'll talk you through your third question which is the um the the question on the oil storage which indeed sorry is continuing to be healthy, the demand for storage. If you look at the occupancy rates that we see in that segment, they're just very healthy, especially in the hub locations, 95% and upwards. And Fujairah is indeed contributing to that also quite a bit. You see that the tenure of our contracts is... is increasing a bit, and there's just a very healthy demand for the infrastructure that we put in that market. Michiel, you will take probably the other questions.

Let me start with the dividend facing. Indeed, the first quarter was rather positive in terms of dividend upstreaming from our joint ventures. a lot of these dividends were actually already declared in Q4 and then indeed received in Q1, and then they count for, let's say, the cash flow, obviously, but also count for the net debt to EBITDA calculation. Indeed, one relatively large part of it is the Pangerang one-off payment that will not be offset in Q2, so it's just the payment we receive, But you may expect for the remainder of the year, although we still expect quite a high dividend in line with our policy of at least 90% of the net profit of joint ventures, that for the remainder of the year, the dividend cash in will be a bit slower than Q1. So Q1 was quite exceptional. And second question was related to the 18 million contribution of growth project and what the impact was of the EET acquisition, but we don't disclose any details on that. So I have to leave it there, David, unfortunately for you. And then on the Europort capacity, there's no accounting impact because a big impairment was taken already in 2022. So we impaired already quite significantly Europort capacity, taking into account, first of all, let's say the energy transition, but secondly, also taking into account some of the capacity conversions we're going to do at the Europort location. So that accounting impact for this year is limited, but was taken in the past.

How much was that, maybe as a reminder, on Europort, and what was the impact on invested capital?

We took an impairment in 2022 of 240 million euros. Just related to this? Not just related to this, to a, well, first of all, related to taking out some capacity over time, of which this is the first chunk. So we will take more capacity out over time and replace it with renewable projects. And the other one was that we factored in the energy transition in our full portfolio. So we looked at the outlook for oil products going forward. And we said, yeah, okay, if you look at the how the energy transition could evolve. And let's take a bit more conservative approach, especially in the period 2040, 2050, on what this capacity can still generate in terms of cash flow.

Yeah, understood. And maybe just for my understanding, when you repurpose capacity, do you write it off before repurposing and then it comes back as a growth contribution from a growth project?

No, it depends on what the conversion is. So, for example, in LA we did a conversion to renewable diesel and sustainable aviation fuel, but then you reuse effectively existing capacity, so there is no need to write it off. But sometimes you demolish capacity, so if you really demolish capacity and build something new, then obviously you need to take the book value of the demolished capacity out of your books, because that's not there anymore. and then you indeed will see growth investments because you replace it with complete new infrastructure. But if you reuse old infrastructure and use that for the conversion, then obviously you don't need to do that.

Okay, that's great. Understood. Thank you very much. Thank you, David. Thank you, sir.

We'll now move to Jeremy Kincaid coming from Van Latschot, Kempten. Please go ahead.

Good morning all. I just have two or three questions as well. The first one for me is just on the revenue per cubic metre. On a year-on-year basis it still looks like it's growing quite strongly, but from the fourth quarter to the first quarter it looks like there was a slight decline. I know obviously you had some divestments, but I was just hoping you could provide some colour around what you think the underlying

know revenue per cubic meter is uh for the business and just help provide some context thanks i think on the let me take this question first on the revenue per cubic meter it's always a mix of uh of different products so if you if you look at revenue to cubic meters if i break it down quite quickly in the portfolio And you see that on the gas side, the revenue per cubic meters are quite high, because that's the nature of the business. Infrastructure is relatively expensive. On the industrial terminal side, you see that revenues per cubic meter are lower than on the gas side, but still relatively high, depending on the type of infrastructure in industrial locations. Sometimes it's purely chemical. Sometimes it's a combination of chemicals and gases. Sometimes also a bit of oil. And then you see revenues per cubic meter for chemical distribution is then most of the times the third in the row. And then oil revenues per cubic meter are the lowest, and especially in the HUB locations where you have large oil capacity. That's where you see that revenues per cubic meter are far below, let's say, the gas. So the divestment impact, that has That has changed the mix a bit if you take chemicals out, so you get relatively a bit more on the oil side. On the other hand, what you also see in Q4 is that we have excess throughput revenues, which are related to contracts which sometimes are impacting the revenue for cubic meters as well. So there is quite a few factors which influence this. So purely looking at revenue per cubic meter does not always give you the right indicator. In general, what we see is on the renewals, we see quite a bit of opportunities to increase revenues per cubic meters for the oil capacity. It's very limited at the moment for chemicals. And for gas and industrial terminals, revenue per cubic meter are really based on the take or pay components of contracts. So that's a bit the story around revenue per cubic meter.

Okay, that's clear. Maybe to ask you another way, would you say the increase in those renewals for, so obviously the oil market sounds very strong compared to six months ago, but would you say the other markets are heading in the right direction, or would you say they're more going sideways in terms of the ability to increase storage rates when you have those renewals?

Well, we have a lot of renewals in the oil market, so that helps us if the market is strong, then you see automatically with price increases that revenue per cubic meters are increasing. For gas and industrial terminals, there's a lot of take or pay business, so these revenues per cubic meter are not rapidly increasing. The only increase is if there's inflation correction, but it's not like we are renewing these renew them once in a while. And on the chemical side, you see that the market is, well, in certain locations like Europe, like Singapore, like China, chemical distribution is weaker than normal. And as a result, you see less renewal opportunities to increase the rates.

Okay, that's clear. And then one final one. It sounds like there's a lot of demand in some of your growth markets, like obviously in Canada and in India, and your balance sheet is clearly very strong. Could you just provide some comments around any opportunities you're seeing outside of the $2 billion that's already earmarked? Do you think there's any scope to see upward revisions to that $2 billion of growth capex over time?

Yeah, I think, Jeremy, if you look at, indeed, we're excited to see what hopefully will come to us in Canada, confirming a positive outlook on growth in India. So in general, if you look at that bucket of growth investments in gas, LNG, LPG, and industrial, And depending on how this year will develop, we are indeed reaching or close to reaching the limits of what we have announced two years ago. So I think when the time is there, we will have a good look at it and see if a revision is required. I think from attractiveness of investing in those areas, that continues to be high on our agenda because we see good opportunities in industrial expansions and in gas opportunities in the different geographies where we are. So we'd like to continue and allocate growth CAPEX to that part of our strategy. We'll hope to update you when we see these projects that we're currently working on coming to the moment of FID, which is the moment of truth.

Sure, understood. Okay, thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Thank you very much, sir. We'll now move to Thijs Berkelder of ABN AMRO, although please go ahead, your light is open.

Good morning all, congratulations with a strong start of the year. First question is on, again, you may have explained the reason for the slow start of the year in terms of spending on growth CAPEX and sustaining CAPEX, how you keep the guidance as it is, but like you start, you seem to be not reaching the target Then on spending on gross capex versus spending money on your share buyback. Can you explain the reasoning behind thinking, should I spend it on new projects versus own shares? And finally, maybe on the cash flow bridge given, can you give me a number for the working capital effect in Q1 and the derivative effect in Q1?

Let me maybe go for question two on how we look at growth CAPEX versus the share buyback program ties. And by the way, good morning and thanks for your attention. your compliments on the start of the year. What we did, Thijs, when we announced the Share Buyback Program, we took into account the execution of our strategy and the execution of our strategy allocating the amounts that we indicated on a yearly basis, as well as the target that we set ourselves between 2022 and 2030. on grow and on accelerate so taking that into account not lowering it not slowing it down but basically reconfirming the excitement over those growth opportunities and over and above we see that there's an opportunity to move ahead with the share buyback program so it's not an either or but at least for this year it's a it's an opportunity to do those things concurrently Both have the growth CAPEX as well as have the share buyback program being executed. And then when it comes to the end of this year and subsequent years where we sit in 2025, we will have a good look at that. But for us, again, the most important thing is that we can continue to execute our strategy successfully and we do not see any hindrance as a result of the share buyback program that we're currently executing.

And then maybe on the third question, which is more related to the Kestrel bridge. Yeah, especially if you look at the impact of derivatives have been relatively limited in the first quarter of 2024. And what you tend to see in the working capital is that the financing expenses are paid every half year, Thijs, so that's normally where you see quite a bit of impact of working capital taking place. Working capital for business is most of the times relatively stable in terms of accounts receivable, accounts payable. The bigger movements have most of the times to do with these items like financing expenses. okay thank you thank you sir ladies and gentlemen once again the slow start of the capex um yeah the slow start of the capex the growth capex is um yeah it's uh it always goes a bit in in chunks depending on where the projects are but although it might look a bit slow we still are quite convinced that we can reach the outlook for the year. But obviously that also will be related to a certain number of FIDs we still need to take and we hope to take in the remainder of the year. And on operating CAPEX you tend to see always a slower first quarter because people are effectively lining up all the operating CAPEX projects based on the approval they got from us to spend money on operating CAPEX. second, third, and fourth quarter are most of the times significantly higher than the first quarter. So you see that we spent a little bit less than 40 million. The outlook is still 230, so that means, well, on average, we should spend around 60 million, a little bit less. So you may expect to pick up in the second, the third, and the fourth quarter.

Yeah, maybe one follow-up question. I'm seeing that you're, especially on OPEX, you deliver clearly stronger than a year ago. Is that primarily energy costs related? And can you give me a short indication on what has happened to your staff expenses?

Yeah, what you tend to see is indeed the biggest impact is coming from energy costs. So the reduction in energy expenses is the most significant benefit for us. If you look at labor costs, it is still relatively under control, but still increasing. And second quarter normally increases a bit further because salary increases will kick in in April. So that's why the first quarter is normally a bit lighter in terms of personal expenses than the second and the third and the fourth quarter. positive impact has been the energy and utilities decrease.

Okay, thanks.

Thank you very much, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, once again, if you have any questions or follow-up questions, please do press star 1 on your keypad. We'll now move to Andre Mulder calling from Kepler, Chevrolet. Please go ahead.

Good morning. Three questions from my side. Firstly, on the proportional cash flow return of 17% compared to a target of 12% plus. Of course, the 17% is higher than 12% plus, so that's in line with the gap is seemingly quite large here. Would you say that the 12% is conservative, or would you expect that that 17% is not sustainable? That's the first question. Second question on, can you give a bit more detail on what the impact has been of your increase of prices in the oil side? Thirdly, although you say that the chemicals industry is still quite weak, we see some glimmers of hopes. Do you see some positive signals yet in that market?

Andre, good morning. Maybe on your second and third question, on the oil side, so the impact of price increases, I would say is relatively limited and relatively speaking to what you see two years ago, three years ago when occupancy went up. We had a double effect of renting out more tanks and the tanks that we were renting out also against higher rates. Over time, if you reach a certain more stable, high level of occupancy, the opportunity to further increase rates is relatively limited. It still happens a bit, but it's not to the same extent as what we've seen the bigger increase in the few years back. It's still overall very healthy development, and especially if you see activity level being high, you see the ancillary revenues definitely contributing in that segment. So it's across the board oil. It's in the three hub locations, and then I take Singapore Straits as one, which we have a few terminals. It just continues to be very healthy with high occupancy rates and just healthy, but not massive tariff improvements. I think that's one. I think on the chemical side, yes, indeed, we read and we can all see some glimmers of hope with some of our customers that expect for the second half of this year and or into 2025, that demand for their products is slowly picking up. However, if you start to translate that to demand for storage, there's always a bit of a delay factor in it because when demand for their products is lowering, it's not immediately that the demand for storage is going down. That will always have a bit of a lagging effect when contracts are up or when supply chains are being actually adjusted to the actual situation. So I think for now, as we say, the impact has been relatively limited, limited to Singapore and Belgium, but we just need to watch this space cautiously on what happens in the remainder of the year. I think that's probably the best way to describe it.

Can you hand the number on this oil price thing?

No, we cannot hand the number because it's also, it's across the board, it's hard to put an exact number on the combination of the effects of occupancy and a rate increase versus... Okay, maybe and then...

Can you mute please? Can you? Yeah, thank you. Hello, can you mute your line? Somebody is unmuted.

Also, a lot of questions on ESG deforestation, which is not something I'm not necessarily super knowledgeable about. I always get some questions about this.

Hello?

Gentlemen, we seem to be having a background noise that's coming from Andre Mulder's line.

Andre, why don't we answer this question?

I have done so, ma'am.

It has muted. Thanks so much. Thank you.

You're welcome. Maybe back to the first question of Andre on the OCR, 17%, is that sustainable? Well, normally this is a quarterly measure, so that means the first quarter is, as already indicated, sustainable. relatively low in terms of operating capex. So it means free cash flow is in the first quarter most of the times higher than in the second, the third and the fourth quarter. So you tend to see that the OCR tails off during the year. So it will not be the end result of 2024. That's for certain. Is it conservative to 12% of the indication we have given? This is a long-term OCR. And obviously the markets are quite strong at the moment, but we also want to make sure that we generate this 12% in markets which are less strong and weaker. So for us, it is a long-term minimum target in good and in bad years. So that's the explanation. So it may look a bit conservative if you look at today's performance, but let's see how we go once the markets are weaker than they are today.

So I don't know.

Next question, please, if there is any.

We do not appear to have any further questions at this time, and I'd like to call back over to Mr. Dick Rochelle for any additional or closing remarks. Thank you.

There's no further questions. I want to thank you for participating, for joining us in the call. If there's any further questions or updates you want to have, you know where to find Fajona and the IR team. Thanks for your interest this morning and have a wonderful day. Bye-bye.

Thank you very much. That will conclude today's presentation. We thank for your attendance. You may now disconnect. Have a good day and goodbye.