Demant As

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to our conference call following the release of our interim management statement for Q1 2025 after market closed yesterday. For the call today, it's business as usual, and we plan to run through the presentation followed by a Q&A session. The presentation should now be available on our website. As per usual, we plan for the call to last no more than one hour in total, including the Q&A session. On the call today, we have Søren Nielsen, our president and CEO, René Schneider, our CFO, and myself, Gustav Hög, from the IR team. That's it for the practical elements, and now over to you, Søren.

Yeah, thank you very much, Gustav, and welcome, everybody. I will today take you through business highlights and key financial takeaways, quick review of the business area, and we will take you through the outlook as well, and then get to Q&A. Business highlight in first quarter. We have seen a negative development in the global hearing aid market coming from increased macroeconomic uncertainties, most importantly in the U.S. market. And this is different than our original expectation. So I'm sure you have already seen we lower our full year guidance for market growth. I think this is number one key takeaway. As expected, hearing aids was impacted by a strong comparison base, a strong introduction last year, as well as the change strategy in managed care and the following laws of share there, but below expectation solely due to the soft market developments. Hearing care continues to deliver solid organic growth, well above the market growth rate, and we continue to consolidate distribution in line with our strategy and the underlying consolidation taking place in the market. The market for diagnostic instruments continues to be soft, impacting growth, although we estimate we have maintained our share in the period. Key financial takeaways. The group realized organic growth of 0%. This is below expectations, but it is due to the lower than expected growth in the global hearing aid market in the first quarter. Adjusting for this market slowdown, we find the underlying performance in line with expectations. Gross margin declined as expected due to the very strong performance in the hearing aid side last year, but also slightly lower than anticipated as the negative US market have caused a change in our mix across geographies that naturally leads to a following ASP decline for our portfolio, our hearing aid sales, just like we have seen in the global market. OPEX saw a slight organic growth following the cost-saving effort in second half last year, which acquisition has naturally added to growth, but also here in line with expectations. EBIT following the slowdown in the global market was below expectation. In addition, we have seen exchange rate also have a slightly negative impact on the profitability on EBIT. We continue to see very strong cash flow from operation and where we are both higher than last year and supported by working capital development. The change in the estimate for the global hearing aid market of 2% 1 to 1 translate into a revised outlook for our organic growth, previously 3 to 7%, now 1 to 5. The loss of profitability from this reduced organic growth and the negative development in currencies since February And then a little bit on tariffs lead to a downwards adjustment of the full year guidance for EBIT from previously 4.5 to 4.9 billion Danish kroner to now being 4.1 to 4.5 billion Danish kroner. Targets and ambition for share buyback unchanged above 1.5 billion. We'll get back to the various growth rates, but to the right, you can see organic growth and you can see hearing aids external minus four. However, with a strong growth in own retail or hearing care and in that growing share of wallet, then a higher growth rate internal and leading to a total growth of minus one percent. Hearing care four, diagnostic flat. and then all in all 3% from acquisitions coming in both in hearing aids, but of course primarily in hearing care. Few more details on the business area, starting with the hearing aid market in first quarter. You see the table with the statistics where we estimate that Europe in general have grown 4% against last year's 3%. North America, US, Canada have grown minus 3% against the 6% last year. But U.S. commercial is where the big deviations to expectation is. It has declined 5 percent compared to first quarter last year and compared to a full year growth of 7 percent last year. Rest of the world estimated Q1 4 percent against a full year 3 percent last year. All in all, 2% so far in the year against our normal expectation of 4% to 6%. I know you could argue that it's a little bit in the comparison base, but still this is below our expectations. And again, the development in the U.S. commercial market is significantly below expectations. We do expect some recovery during the year, but it cannot fully close the gap. The ASP globally is slightly negative where we originally guided for flat. This is purely related to the change in mix that the development for the full year is expected to do. And for the first quarter, of course, more dramatic when U.S. commercial is down 5%. So Europe, the growth there was driven by NHS, also good growth in Germany. France was slightly positive in line with expectations. We still and remain to have strong expectations for the full year. However, we knew that it would be a soft start since we have to get clients in to the funnel and have them out on trial before they can actually be invoiced. Again, U.S. commercial down across the various channels, private pay and managed care. The growth in VA remains slightly negative. This is in line with what we saw last year and still mainly attributed to capacity constraints of various kinds. We saw solid growth in Canada. Rest of the world slightly positive in both Japan and China and good development in a number of emerging markets. So 2% in the first quarter and somewhat revised expectations, but we'll get back to that for the full year. Hearing aids in first quarter, soft start to the year was expected and we have seen that. This was based by, or the reason for that was the very high comparison base driven by the Oticon Intent launch last year in February and the following market share loss in managed care in second quarter last year. So the last quarter with full strong comps in managed care sales. However, still below expectations due to the negative development in the U.S. commercial market. In terms of external sales, unit growth was flattish, while the market development in U.S. resulted in negative development in ASP. But again, this attributes purely to geography mix changes with larger growth rates in rest of the world than in North America. Europe, solid performance in Europe, slightly positive growth in France following the market development, negative growth in UK, below market growth rate as we still have a weak position in what's called AQP, which is private fitting of government NHS instruments, something we work on improving our position in. but currently cannot follow up with the increased amount of people that seek this route. North America, positive growth and market share gains in VA. Negative growth in U.S. commercial due to loss of share in managed care in Q2-24. And, of course, also the comp space, as we spoke to. Strong growth in Asia with solid growth in China due to market share gains on the wholesale side. Very strong growth in Japan and solid growth in Australia. Here in care, first quarter, solid performance, outgrowing the market. Again, 4% organic growth, obviously above the underlying market growth. We saw very strong performance in Canada, in Germany and several of our mid-sized markets. Solid performance in U.S. relative to the weak market. We continue to see a growth. You would say an improved mix between instruments that have no co-funding from Managed Care and those that have. And this benefits the business. Continued contribution from acquisition in the period primarily in Germany, Denmark and Italy. All countries where we have done significant acquisitions within the last quarters and therefore with a good strong effect in the first quarter. Growth mainly driven by units with a slight ASP tailwind from positive product mix as well as geography changes. Slightly positive growth in France, as I said, and there are continued strong expectations for sales and growth in the common quarters as we expect the market to pick up and us capturing a good strong share in that. Diagnostic in the first quarter continued the headwinds from soft market developments in general and the market remained soft. We estimate that it was flat in the period. We estimate that we have maintained our share as we have also been flat. Our service and consumable business continue to perform well in January. The geography is more specifically strong growth in UK and France, positive growth in US, negative in Canada due to very strong comps and then negative growth in China due to continued inflation. Access issues to public markets due to insufficient product portfolio, which is made in China, but again, something we work to improve. Good growth in several emerging markets in the diagnostic business as well. So coming back to outlook and markets estimations. Of course, the world is uncertain. This is our best estimate. It is based on a core assumption of recovery in the hearing aid market. We see this as a postponement either of your buying a first hearing aid or a renewal. especially in U.S., driven by increased consumer uncertainty. We expect this uncertainty to improve and therefore people spending more again. The global hearing aid market, as I said, saw 2% unit growth in Q1, all coming from U.S. On the full year basis, we revised this to a Three to five percent growth, meaning one percentage point down, which, of course, implies an improvement during the year. We don't know the exact timing and it can go a little bit up month to month. But the trend is an upwards positive development. It cannot fully close the gap. That's our assumption. And therefore, the three to five percent. On the ASP, again, previously flat, now minus one. Well, this follows the revised unit growth expectations across regions and not isolated any changes like for like pricing as such. So all in all, revised outlook from previously 4% to 6% in value to now 2% to 4%, meaning a lowering of 2 percentage points in the overall growth for the market. And this is, of course, what we have carried on in our own organic growth expectation, as I said. Currency have also worked a little bit against us, and I will give the word just shortly to René to elaborate a little bit further on the details in that.

Yeah, thank you, Søren. And yes, it has been an unusual development in the past month. And we will here try to elaborate somewhat on the impact on demand and also our expectations. But since our publication of the original outlook on 6th of February, we have seen a significant depreciation of almost all currencies against the euro and thus also against the Danish kroner. And if I could draw your attention to the table on the top right hand side, you will see how some of the main currencies that we are exposed to have changed since our previous outlook and thus what we have incorporated into our expectations for the full year, since our expectations are already always based on the current sort of exchange spot rate. But you would see major currencies like US dollar, Canadian dollar, Australian dollar being down five to seven percent now incorporated into the full year expectations. These are currencies that we hedge actively. And then you see also Some other main currencies like the Chinese yen, Brazilian real and Turkish lira also being down significantly. These are currencies where we do not hedge because the cost of doing that is kind of prohibitive. This changed currency environment translates into a significant change in top line expectations from currency, where we previously expected a plus 1% growth on the top line. From currency we now expect a minus 2%. both rounded numbers. So all in all, this is on the revenue side a change negatively of more than 800 million. Despite the fact that we hedge, this does give an impact to the EBIT side. When we look at the non-hedged currencies where there is a big drop through we estimate the impact to be 50 million whereas on the hedged currencies meaning all our main currencies the impact is quote unquote only 75 million since we have a quite significant hedging gain that hits the P&L And then in addition, we have other natural hedges that you will see positively in the cash flow statement under investments that will also be, you can say, less expensive in DKK. So all in all, this gives us, with the current exchange rates, a negative impact of 125 million compared to our original outlook. I think that's it on currencies.

Yeah, thanks a lot, Rene. And if we then try to summarize it, all of the rationale behind changing the profit outlook and the organic growth outlook for the full year, I think I have iterated enough on the organic growth. We basically lowered exactly with our lowered expectation for the full year value growth in the market. On the EBIT, in round numbers, the lowering of growth assumption leads to a minus 250 million DKK EBIT. René just shared the rationale for the minus 125 on exchange rate. And then we have a minor tariff impact from diagnostic, which for the group is immaterial, but still yet different than what we assumed in February. So all in all, these three factors is purely the reason for lowering the EBIT guidance with 400 million dollars. The 4.1 to 4.5 entails the same list of potential up and downs and gains and wins and losses and the same uncertainty and the performance we have seen in the first quarter is within that framework, not more to the up than to the down. There are different things that are slightly different. That's always the case, but we are still in line with original plans. And therefore, summarizing the outlook assumptions, the changed market we have iterated on, we still expect, but not changed, the French market to grow in the high single digits and with the flat or slightly positive development so far in the first quarter. This entails a significant uplift to growth in France and we have good indicators for that. So we maintain and reiterate that assumption. The discontinued business being communication as well as the bone anchored perform in line with expectation and this is why we maintain our full year expectation for net profit of 0 to 50 million and no changes to that either. We expect to allocate cash to Bolon acquisitions in a slightly higher than normal level due to acquisition level, pipeline, etc. And this is what have with what have happened so far this year. No changes to the expectation for the year, but we have seen a good piece materialize already. We expect currency changes. Again, René went through that. Most of it is still ahead of us and reflects a change that have happened. We don't know if it continues, but if the prices continue as their exchange rate continues as they are today. then this will be the impact. We have no visibility to any further changes in tariffs that should impact the group, and that's why we at current state state the 25 million in diagnostic as the expected tariffs for impact for the full year. So summarizing outlook, 1-5% organic growth, EBIT 4.1-4.5, more than 1.5 billion in share buyback, acquisitions remains 2% revenue coming in from that, that's confirmed. FX growth changed from plus one on the top line to now minus two on the top line, unchanged tax rate, unchanged profit from this continued operation. And we still expect to end our gearing ratio well within the medium to long term target of two to two and a half. So with that, over to Q&A.

We will now begin the question and answer session. To ask a question, you may press star then one on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speakerphone, please pick up the handset before pressing the keys. If at any time your question has been addressed and you would like to withdraw your question, please press star then two. At this time, we will pause momentarily to assemble our roster. Your first question comes from Jane Mugen with Citi. Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my question. I have two, please. The first one is I want to ask you about the managed care headwind to hearing aids wholesale in the quarter and whether you can talk to expectations for the rest of the year with regards to this topic. And the second question is if you could please provide any color on pricing of the new VA contract, even ballpark figures, and can you also confirm whether Oticon is included in the new category or not? Thank you.

Yeah, thank you very much for the two questions. Q1 developed exactly as expected. We lost significant share Q2 last year. This is what we have seen in the first quarter. So no fundamental change to what we have seen during the fall of last year on a run rate perspective. It is true we have expanded our offering of products into one of the players in that field and based on that we expect a gradual increase in share during the year or for the rest of the year as we pass the full year lowering or loss of share that we saw in Q2 last year. On the VA, we cannot share a lot of details, but pricing have been adjusted as part of renewing contracts. It will come out eventually how it is. But I can confirm that we are present in all categories that the VA have offered and think we have a competitive offering in the various categories.

I can add that you asked about the managed care headwind on hearing aid in first quarter. It is around the 3%, which we have communicated prior on wholesale.

Thank you. Helpful. Your next question comes from Maja Stephanie Pataki with Kepler Chevrolet.

Hi, good afternoon. This is Maja. Two questions from Maja's side as well. CERN, maybe, you know, Q1 surprisingly soft, should be improving throughout the year. Can you talk a bit about if there have been any pricing initiatives taken by you or your competitors that have been making the market even more challenging? That would be question number one. And then the second question relates to the French market. We've seen some headlines or some news that there is a debate in France to lower the contribution on hearing aids going forward. Any thoughts about how this regulation could change and what the timeframe for that could be? Thank you.

Thank you very much. I don't think we have seen anything in particular. A lot of the US market pricing is not a spot market. Whether it's VA or it's managed care contracts or it's large players, there is, of course, always a competitive situation in the field. But there's also been new technology out that's obviously pushing for better pricing. So the mix tends to compensate. That's basically our communication, why we compete. We expect the market normally to have a flat pricing development and what we have seen evidence for in the past many years. And I think that's still intact. So no significant worsening or change there. The French market, there is various discussions going on. I don't know them in such details that I can speak to any potential timing or so on. I think that's highly uncertain and unclear at the moment. A very general comment is that markets with very high reimbursement often ends, in my opinion, in a little bit of over-regulation. So we are not... very concerned about changes long term. It's good for patients to have free choice, so there is a good opportunity to allow for additional funding from the user, driving a better product mix. So in general, we like a free and open market where consumer choice is still an option.

Maybe quickly a follow-up, if I may. On France, you're indicating early signs of an acceleration and you still stick to your high single-digit growth for the year. Could you confirm, this is on unit terms, what are you expecting from an ASP perspective?

Absolutely correct, Maya. It's in units. And we do assume that many of the clients coming in from renewal have a free-to-client category type of products. We saw a big share of those in the first year. Then we saw less of them in the following years because that's where the market contracted. So that's also where we expect the expansion. So yes, the ASP will, for that reason, go down. But again, it's a pure and natural mix following, you could say, the installed base pattern. Will we try to, now people have tried a hearing aid and maybe their hearing loss have grown, to argue for buying a better product with co-payment? Back to my comment before. Yes, absolutely. But still, the assumption is it will be with a lower ASP than we saw in comparison last year in France.

Great, thanks. Our next question will come from Angela Bosinovic from BNPXN. Please go ahead.

Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions. I have two as well. First one on the guidance. Can you give us any indication on your market growth assumptions by region, specifically if you anticipate a global market growth of three to five units and France high single digits? What are other countries that are driving the slowdown and any insight on the US commercial market assumptions for the rest of the year? thank you and the second one on nhs can you give us any color on the loss of market share in the uk and how should we think about the share going forward was this market share loss anticipated is it a change in legislation or anything similar thank you a lot

Yeah, thank you very much. You know, it's of course, if you look at a single market, then each market have a big uncertainty than when you add them all together because it's structural. So no, except for the U.S., where we have started, obviously very different than core assumptions. That's also where we, for the remainder of the year, see the main drag. Could there be other markets? You know, we can see there are markets that are hanging a little soft compared to the 4 to 6. Will they stay there or will they come back up? Very difficult to say. That's why we normally say 4 to 6. France is, of course, an obvious better than average market. And other than that, I don't have, you know, I have side to anybody that are particularly good or particularly bad. So see it as a mixed basket with France in the positive end and U.S. in the assumed recovery normalization end, but not able to close the full year gap. And on NHS, the loss of share, yeah, it's all in the government business, meaning hearing aids paid, where both the service and the product is paid by the National Health Service. Most of them are fitted at government-driven clinics in hospitals, but a growing share is fitted by private operators, that get a fitting fee and buy NHS-like hearing aids to fit the clients. This channel is growing. Our position at that channel is not as strong as it is in the hospital part of the business, where we are very strong. And therefore, we lose our total share when that happens. private-fitted channel grows at a higher pace. We are working to strengthen our position in that channel, but in the quarter past, we lost out there. I hope that helped.

Thank you.

All right. For the United Men's Care Contract here, this seems to be a big contract to... When comparing to where you were before the exit in 2024, how much back in Managed Care are you now? How much more do you need to win back or get back on in order to say that you are fully backed? And also, I had expected you would enter with the Burner Fund and not the Oticon brand. So why did you decide to offer the Absolute Premium brand to Managed Care here? Thank you.

First of all, important, 30,000 feet. We have contracts with basically all players in the managed care sector. These contracts contain several sub-segments and it's quite detailed. What are you in and what are you out of? The summary of it all is we have expanded our portfolio of products offered on parts of the managed care administrative under United. And this will assume leading to growing market share during the year. It will not be back to where we came from for various reasons, but it will lift our share from where we are now. That's the assumption. It cannot fully be predicted in volume how the market reacts to it and the different channels that fit them. But we will not be fully back. We are still trying to pursue our strategy of a broader economy. utilization of our brands in the group, but it has been important for us to re-enter with Olicon in parts of United to be able to grow our share in the men's care channel.

Thank you.

Our next question comes from Susanna Ledley with Bernstein.

Great. Thanks for taking my questions. I have two, please. First, I guess you're just a bit more conservative than peers on the outlook for the global market, which seems to come from a different view on the U.S. recovery. Maybe you could talk a little bit about how the U.S. market performed in April and so far in the start of May, and sort of what you're extrapolating for the rest of the year, and whether you see any sort of pent-up demand from users who didn't seek hearing aids in Q1. And then second, just on your retail business, it's obviously performed well over the past several quarters, and you seem to have been outperforming in the U.S. So just wondering to what extent has sort of XT managed care and sort of taking a smaller role in managed care in the U.S. played a part in the better performance versus the market?

Thank you for your questions. You know, the same. Yes, we might be a little more pessimistic than some of our competitors. Maybe we also started a little more optimistic. One difference is the ASP assumption. And it's not to communicate. We believe prices are going down. We just say there is a following consequence of a different geography mix. Specifically speaking to the U.S. commercial market, we have no anticipation VA will change fundamentally. So the commercial market, minus five in one quarter, that is a long way up to a normal assumption of four to six percent. And our estimates is even though we will see and to some extent have already seen a positive trend. That's also a little bit to do with the comparison and timing of different new introductions this year. Yes, we have seen that trend and believe in it. It's part of why we have come to this conclusion that this is our new estimate that is also based on what we have seen in April. I don't think any of us have a very, very bright crystal ball for the development of the U.S. market. So it is primarily related to the uncertainty centered around consumer sentiment in U.S., And this is our best estimate. It is implying quite a good, you know, improvement of the run rate, but not an ability to fully compensate. And you could say that's the assumption. And then on the retail performance, yes, sorry, it is definitely part of it that we have seen an improved mix from managed care where we receive a fitting fee and an income for a hearing aid versus a full sales that is part of driving the organic growth in hearing care.

Great, thank you. Your next question comes from Martin Parkhoy with SEB.

Yes, Martin Parkhoy, SEB. Just a question on the mid-term and long-term targets. You raised the market expectations back at the CMD in March, and that was after a very strong year for the market with a huge commercial growth in the US. You know, if you should set the targets for the market for the next three to five years now, would it still then be the same, or are you maybe a little bit cautious also on the mid- to long-term ASP development? And then the second question is also based on your own ambitions to see organic growth to six to eight percent for demand. That has, of course, been a little bit challenging last year and this year, with both the slowdown this year, as you speak, on hearing health care, but also diagnostics, which is also part of, of course, the business, the growth business, is how far we're away for you to return to that midterm growth again. And then just a final question. Are you satisfied with the R&D efficiency in DEMA? And do you believe that the number of products and form factors and stuff like is coming at the speed that you actually like it to come?

Thank you very much, Martin. Overall, yes, we are still firm in our mid- to long-term guidance and expectation for growth for demand. I think with the strategy we have, which we also went through on the Capital Market Day, fueling innovation, continue to participate in consolidation, adding new markets, etc., this is definitely our target and our ambition. It entails winning share. And it also is based on this core assumption of a value growth of 4 to 6 percent and then taking a share in that market. And that's still intact. We have had, yes, a headwind last year, which was significant. maybe more coming from our own activities this year, does reflect that we have not seen the market development we anticipated. And that's, of course, an assumption behind such a mid- to long-term outlook. You also touch on the diagnostic. There's also no fundamental changes to the diagnostic in order for the global market to grow 4 to 6 percent. You would fundamentally also have to see a 4 to 6 percent expansion of the infrastructure, whether it's all the way up to screening and so on and down to the actual fittings. And there are many places in the world where infrastructure are being built. The main infrastructure headwind for us apart from a little soft market these years is the access to the China market and there's also no doubt that there is some level of correlation with the size we have of our own ability to bring out new products that push a little harder for renewal or incentivize a little harder for renewal and there we have some of our The most important products are aging, and there's no doubt we have a lot of focus on bringing out new products over the coming years, which I'm sure will fuel growth. So I think that's together with China is a key driver for diagnostic. R&D efficiency is always a difficult one to measure. But yes, I think we bring out many, many strong innovations. We have seen a very continuous flow of new products of very high quality 2020, 2023, 2024. If you look at some of the market research done in the U.S., it confirms a leadership in audiological performance, sound quality. It also confirms a best in class in sound. And with that, the belief in the product's robustness, we have seen a significant improvement, which is something we have focused a lot on in ease of use, including connectivity. And I think these are all important factors that's a testament to sustainability. high efficiency. Remember, we are not the biggest and therefore, you know, you also have to look at capacity. There are players that spend an absolute money more than us. So yes, I think we have an effective R&D organization.

Thank you.

Again, if you wish to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. Your next question comes from Julianne Audor with Bank of America.

Hi, good afternoon, everyone. Thanks a lot for picking my questions. I have one, and sorry if you already answered to it, but I'm looking at the hearing aid business. So you reported minus 4% in Q1. The market was growing 2% volume, negative ASP. So if I understand correctly, you expect to catch up with the market growth for the full year, which means that you expect to deliver market share gain in the remaining nine months. The question is, does it include the tailwind from the managed care for the remainder of the year, or does it rely on a new product launch during this year? Thank you very much.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the less good than market performance in Q1 does relate totally back to the loss of share Q2 last year in the managed care channel. As I just explained in another question, we will not fully recover that with the changes there and all these things ups and downs are within you know the list of things that could happen during the year and are part of our original guidance so yes it's all within the expectations so is the upside in france etc all of it is gaining share as we move during the year uh and a stronger market growth in the remaining of the year than we have seen so far okay okay perfect i mean and you like you haven't mentioned maybe the lunch of like a new uh new platform at some point this year also to drive again yeah we comment on new products when we have them and are ready to present them and can speak to the details of what they do perfect thank you very much

Our next question comes from Martin Brno with Nordi.

Thank you very much for taking my question. I had some issues with the line, so sorry if this question has already been answered. But last year, when you pulled out of United, I think that you were quite vocal that this was something that the independents were very happy about. and supported and you expected some market share gains in that segment. How has the reaction been now where you completely come back to United and even bring in the Oticon brand which you were sure you could leave out instead you would have burner phone in there. Just curious if you had any reactions on the independent side from this.

Yeah, thank you very much. It is, of course, something we have also discussed with the market or customers in the market. And I think we all realized that we did not see the level of upside on the independent channel we had anticipated. Secondly, the consequence was stronger than anticipated for us in the managed care. It was never the intention to lose as much share. It was never the intention not to play it. among all the major players in managed care. So, yes, you could say it's a total reassessment of the situation where we have had to realize that in order to balance sales across channels, which is always key in this industry, as some of them do, have an element of of conflict of interest how do you best play your brands and your your products across these of course including pricing to optimize your your total positioning and it is assessing all these various parameters and and i would say i think this is again also a shared view by a number of independents that that it it might not have given them as much as they thought as well. So this is our decision, and this is how our continued dialogue with specifically this customer have played out, and we now see how that goes into the market.

Okay, that's very clear. Thank you, sir.

That concludes our question and answer session. I would like to turn the conference back over for any closing remarks.

Thank you, operator, and thank you all for joining us on the call this afternoon. We hope to see many of you on the road in the coming weeks, and if you have any follow-up questions before then, and especially in the light of the disturbance on the line today, please reach out to us directly after the call, and we'll do our best to help you out. Have a good day.