Wacker Chemie Ag Ord

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Wacker Chemie conference call on Q1 2025. I am Sandra, the chorus call operator. I would like to remind you that all participants will be in listening mode and the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. You can register for questions at any time by pressing star and one on your telephone. For operator assistance, please press star and zero. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Jörg Hofmann, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, operator. Welcome to the Wacken Chemie AG conference call on the Q125 results. Dr. Christian Hartler, CEO, and Dr. Tobias Ohler, CFO, will take you through our prepared slides momentarily. The press release, our presentation, and the detailed financial tables are available on our webpage under the caption, Investor Relations. Please note, that management comments during this call include forward-looking statements involving risks and uncertainties. We encourage you to review the Safe Harbor Statement in today's presentation and our 2024 AD report regarding risk factors. All documents mentioned are available on our website.

Chris? Welcome, everyone, to our conference call on the first quarter of 2025. The performance of our operating businesses was in line with our expectations. Considering the overall market environment, we have made a good start to the year. Sales in the first quarter of 2025 came in at 1.48 billion euros, at slightly below last year's level and substantially higher than the previous quarter due to typical seasonality. The reported Group EBITDA came in at 127 million euros and was well below last year's result of 172 million euros. This decline was primarily due to weak demand for solar-grade polysilicon and construction-related polymers and low utilization rates holding the other segments back. When looking at the four operating segments, the cumulative EBDA was just 3% lower year-over-year at 197 million euros. Overall, the chemicals EBDA at 145 million euros was up 6% year over year. This increase was driven by strong growth in specialty silicones. Our semi-business with polysilicon also grew strongly, with substantially higher volumes sold. Given the challenging markets, we focus on improving resilience through specialization, efficiency measures, and cost-cutting. In polysilicon, semi-grade materials are specialty products with high barriers to entry. Here we are ramping up our new edging line in Burghausen. The line will enable the next generation of chip production and strengthen our leadership position in the industry. With our growing semi-volumes, we are improving our mix and resilience. in the polysilicon segment step by step. On our last call, I highlighted that we systematically leverage efficiency programs to lower specific operating costs. These longstanding programs are part of our DNA. On the next page, you can see the different winners for each division. These awards are a great way to regularly honor our team's achievements and keep the company focused on driving efficiency in lowering operational costs. Now, looking to sustainability. For us, this is not only about CO2, but also very much about safe operations. Producing chemicals clearly involves many risks. These risks need to be properly managed, and this requires a strong safety culture. Water where not only accidents, but also near misses are reported. These incidents must be thoroughly examined and measures implemented to keep our employees safe every day. We must ensure a safety culture where employees speak up and actively take steps to ensure safe operations. This is not a single action and we need to strive to improve our performance constantly. This is why we launched a new global safety initiative, effectively sharing safety information across all our plants globally. We intend to make our operations even safer by further raising awareness. At WACKER, safety is the precondition for everything we do. Consequently, our safety performance is part of management's remuneration packages. The WACKER operating system, a unique efficiency tool developed over a decade ago and is a key feature of our continuous improvement. At the annual WOS conference, we awarded four projects for their significant contribution to improving our operations. They have all something in common, increased output and productivity while maintaining or even decreasing costs. This combination yields substantial savings in specific operating and energy costs. Driving efficiency is not a matter of big wins. It is about continuously implementing many projects. Last year alone, we initiated nearly 1,000 projects, which yielded a net savings of about 60 million euros. These were all hard won, and we will continue to drive efficiency and productivity across our operations. Going to page four, and here's an overview of some exciting new innovative products we presented at the European Coating Show Nuremberg in March. The SILRAS product is a silicon-based resin hardener for long-lasting protective topcoats on high-value steel structures such as bridges. The durable epoxy polysiloxane topcoats are highly weather and UV resistant and have excellent performance and safety benefits compared to competing products. Our GenuSil hybrid polymers combine the functionality of silanes with a polymer black bulk. Essentially, we capture the benefits of both chemistries in one product. This enables our customers to formulate high-performance sealants and adhesives for an increasing range of applications. In addition, we showcase some new solutions that increase the sustainability of our products or improve the performance of products with lower carbon footprint. Our Equilire and ElastoSeal sealant is made from renewable raw materials for natural stone applications. Our vinyl resins for heat sealing, industrial coatings and printing inks are available with a reduced carbon footprint by leveraging renewable energy. And last but not least, we have polymer binder solutions for tile adhesives produced with composite cements. These new binders support the use of low carbon cements in construction. I encourage you to visit our website for more details on these specialty applications. So before I hand over to Tobias, let me comment on some recent headlines about trade tariffs and new German government policy initiatives. The German government recently announced massive fiscal support programs for infrastructure and defense. Additionally, the incoming government intends to lower energy costs in general by five cents per kilowatt hour by eliminating various taxes, fees, and surcharges. While the energy intensive industry is already exempt from many of these items, at least to different extent, the government has also signaled that they intend to introduce measures that would also support the energy intensive industry. We see this as a renewed commitment to address power costs in Germany, but it remains unclear how they will implement it. We have been arguing for an industry power price for some time. It's imperative that Germany has competitively priced energy and that its energy-intensive industries have a level playing field with global competitors. So from that perspective, we welcome the German government's initiative to drive the needed investments and keep energy prices competitive. This will likely be a net positive for the German economy and our customers, but we remain cautious about what benefits we may see until concepts are both clear and implemented. Yet this year's defining political news is the frequent and deep changes to U.S. trade policies. Forward-looking indicators have weakened in recent weeks, particularly in the U.S., but also globally. Current developments in international trade relations, particularly potential customs conflicts, pose a considerable risk to global economic development and security. Customers report increased uncertainty and our order intake has seen higher volatility in the second half of March and April. Given the frequency of changes to the tariffs and counter-tariffs, predicting the potential impacts of any reliable degree of certainty is difficult. We have, therefore, decided to leave our guidance unchanged. We expect Group EBITDA between 700 and 900 million euros. However, the potential impacts of a trade war are not included in our forecast. Considering these increasing uncertainties in the market, We focus on further strengthening our resilience. We are driving efficiency improvements and digitalization, pushing ahead with process and structural improvements. WACKER stays on course. We have confirmed our strategy. We have a strong financial position and are benefiting from global megatrends, whether it's renewable energies, sustainable construction, electromobility or digitalization. These trends will drive our business forward. And now to Tobias for Further details on our results. Thank you, Chris. Welcome, everyone. Looking at the profit and loss, sales during the first quarter of 2025 were 1.48 billion euros. Group sales were down 1% year-over-year, due mainly to lower volumes of solar-grade polysidicants sold. On the other hand, sales in chemicals were 2% ahead of the prior year figures. Sage growth in specialty silicones offset lower sage in polymers. Strong growth in biopharma significantly supported higher sage year-over-year in biosolutions. EBITDA during the first quarter came in at 127 million euros versus 172 million euros a year ago. Looking first at the positive items, chemicals increased earnings year-over-year. Chemicals EBTA reached 145 million euros, an increase of 6%, driven by growth in specialty silicones. As Chris already pointed out, the lower group EBTA resulted from lower volumes sold in construction-related polymers and solar-grade polysilicon and lower utilization rates. Others held back the reported EBTA by 52 million euros versus the 13 million euro charge last year. This year's higher charge resulted from the lower contribution from our equity stake in Citronic, the lower absorption of group infrastructure costs, lower hydropower output in Borkhausen, and higher foreign currency hedging costs in the quarter. As a reminder, the main component of the other EBITDA is the CO2 compensation offset. In the first quarter, this was approximately 40 million euros. As in the previous years, we expect this will be refunded in the fourth quarter of this year. Due to the lower reported EBITDA and the higher depreciation, EBIT was at break-even. Depreciation has been increasing in line with the higher level of investments in the past couple of years, We have reduced investments this year. Our focus is on filling new capacities. Our total net income was a negative 3 million euros, equating to a loss of 16 euro cents per share. Our balance sheet shows strong financials with a high liquidity of 923 million euros, 4.8 billion euros in shareholder equity and a low net debt position. Net working capital increased by 148 million euros in the first quarter of 2025 as trade receivables increased by 15% over year end. This primarily reflected the typical seasonal increases in chemicals. Overall, the reported inventory position decreased somewhat in the first quarter. This was due to the policy constraints exceeding production volumes. As you recall, we built significant inventories in Polysilicon last year and have taken steps now to match production with demand. Going forward, we look to use these inventories to meet the potential demand recovery for solar grade Polysilicon. At silicones, sales in the first quarter were approximately 745 million euros, up 5% year over year. Due to typical seasonality, sales were 15% higher quarter over quarter. At €108 million, EBITDA was up 33% versus the prior year. This increase was primarily due to a significantly better product mix amidst stable pricing. Specialties continued to see volume growth. Healthcare applications and high-performance LEDs in displays performed particularly well. The EBITDA margin was 14.5% compared to 11.4% a year ago. While this represents a step in the right direction, the reported margin is well below target and still unsatisfactory. We are focused on portfolio management and efficiency measures to improve the overall level of profitability. Looking at the proposed US trade tariffs, some silicones appear to be exempt from tariffs. However, any outcome remains unclear. Important to note is that the U.S. market is undersupplied and needs imports to function. For this reason, we expect to pass on most of the cost of any additional tariffs. Therefore, we only expect a minor direct impact from the proposed tariffs, but see the potential for indirect effects. Dilly cones are at the start of many value chains, and if customer products are impacted, we will also see lower demand. Our expectations are unchanged for the full year 2025, but highlight a higher level of uncertainty due to tariffs. Demand in the US became weaker in March, and we need to see how trade talks develop and what impact this may or may not have. At Polymers, sales in the first quarter were €360 million. 3% below last year and up 7% quarter on quarter due to seasonality. Somewhat lower prices and volumes in construction-related powders drove the year-over-year sales development. In addition, EBITDA in the first quarter was held back by lower utilization year-over-year and inventory effects. Ongoing weakness in construction in Europe and Asia offset volume growth in the Americas. Demand for dispersions remained at good level and volumes were at the prior year level. For the full year 2025, our expectations for polymers are unchanged. As with silicones, we also see higher U.S. trade tariff-related risks. While our U.S. polymers business is for the most part regionally contained and sees limited direct impacts, the indirect impacts may be meaningful. Particular building material costs may increase due to the U.S. tariffs. Recently, builder confidence in the U.S. has dropped. If this translates into lower construction rates there, we will not be immune to this. At BioSolutions, sales during the first quarter were 91 million euros, up 27% year-over-year, but 14% lower than the previous quarter. BioPharma drove the sales development in In both cases, the improvement year-over-year was due to the reservation payment in connection with the German pandemic preparedness plan. The lower sales compared to the previous quarter were due to the timing of biopharma project completions. These effects carried through to the EBTA line. Earnings were on par year-over-year but well below the previous quarter. As a reminder, last year's first EBTA benefited from a good product mix. and customer projects. Our expectations for the full year 2025 in biosolutions are unchanged. We do not see a major recovery in biotech this year yet, and we expect the market environment for CDMOs to remain challenging. At polysilicon, sales in the first quarter came in at 245 million euros, 18% lower year over year due to significantly lower solar grade volume sold. In comparison to the preceding quarter, sales climbed by 18%, higher volumes in both semi- and solar-grade polysilicon doses. The first quarter EBITDA was 29 million euros, including only a small IRA contribution. This level of earnings was comparable to the performance of the past two quarters. Lower energy costs and an improved mixed supported earnings, but the sequentially lower utilization rate held them back. For the full year 2025 in Polysilicon, our expectations are unchanged. As I highlighted on the last call, we base the lower end of the range on contractual supplies. Scenarios above the low end of our EBITDA guidance range require an improvement in demand beyond our contracts. During the quarter, the preliminary and now final anti-dumping and countervailing determinations for some Southeast Asian countries increased significantly. Needless to say, the higher tariffs create additional uncertainty in the market, and the supply chain will need some time to adjust for that. On the other hand, our strategic focus is on semiconductor policy concerns. Here, our volumes are growing nicely and the ramp of the new etching line is on track. This will support our business's overall resilience. Now let's look at our net financial position. In the first quarter of 2025, we generated a gross cashflow of 32 million euros. Trade receivables driven by typical seasonal patterns and chemicals has backed the cashflow. After cash flow from investing activities of 197 million euros and some other effects, we ended the quarter with a net debt of 880 million euros. Before we start with the Q&A, let me summarize. WACKER is well positioned financially and strategically. We have made substantial investments, strengthened our asset base and improved our regional exposure. Our specialty business is performing well in a challenging environment. and we will continue investing to serve our customers in attractive markets. Given the overall economic and geopolitical uncertainty, we need to remain flexible. We are taking actions to ensure that we have the right balance between supporting our customers' growing businesses and being prepared for more challenging economic conditions should headwinds become more persistent. Operator?

Ready to begin the Q&A now.

Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch-tone telephone. You will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and one. Participants are requested to disable the loudspeaker mode while asking a question. In the interest of time, please limit yourself to two questions. Anyone with a question may press star and one at this time. Our first question comes from Christian Feitz from Kepler Chauvereux. Please go ahead.

Yes, good afternoon, good morning, wherever you are. Thanks for taking my two questions. First of all, could you please give us some insights how demand in your chemical activities progressed during the first quarter, i.e. did we see an acceleration or deceleration during Q1? You already pointed to March being relatively weak in the US. I understand that. But maybe give us a general observation. And how has Q2 started in terms of demand, please? And then my second question is on silicones. Your unchanged fiscal year guidance calls for slightly higher margins versus 24. Could you please elucidate what slightly means in numerical terms? Because if I take the very healthy Q1 margin, we would be looking at a sequential decrease from here on. Is that a correct observation?

Christian, Tobias here.

I would start with the first question on demand in chemicals in the first quarter. How is it shaping up? So, in general, we see good demand for our specialties in silicon. And that is definitely the focus. But order entry has become more volatile in short term. On the standard products, which are not in focus, the dynamics and standards are largely unchanged. China remains weak, and we also see idle upstream capacities in China. So I would say March was a tick lower than expected from that uncertainty. But overall, we expect to see a moderate seasonal uptick also in the second quarter against the first quarter. the moderation coming from that tariff uncertainty and also a bit from the exchange rate move that was quite drastic over the last few weeks. In polymers, the next chemical segment, order entry has not changed that significantly as in silicones. And also regional dynamics are unchanged. So U.S., And some parts of Europe are stronger than Asia and stronger definitely than China. So construction powders are still weaker in Europe and China, but our dispersions, which are broadly addressing consumer markets and industry, have maintained good overall demand. But also, as in silicones, we expect only a moderate seasonal uptick now for the spring. second quarter against the first quarter. We also would expect a higher EBTA, but this will be held back by a major VAM turnaround, which we have every other year. And in the past, we had a cost of 15 to 20 million, so a significant cost for this. So this will hold us back. A moderate seasonal uptick is still visible from the order patterns. So much for the two chemical divisions and update on order entry. On the margin, I think we had a good start in the first quarter in silicones. That is basically due to a strong product mix. We guided for a slight increase. I would say slide increase is also one percentage point, so maybe two. I would not extrapolate now with the seasonal pattern the very strong start from the first quarter.

Hope this helps. Okay, thanks. Yes, thanks very much. Very helpful.

The next question comes from Tom Beaglesworth from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.

Thanks very much for the presentation and the opportunity to ask questions. First one, if I may, you talked about the supply chain adjusting in polysilicon to the anti-dumping, countervailing duties. How will you adjust your business? Are you still selling at the international price? And how enforceable are your contracts given the price premium of that product and what looks to be a much more challenging situation export environment from Southeast Asia into the U.S. markets. I'm kind of keen to understand the dynamics you're seeing there. Second question is with regards to the silicones business and the input cost environment. Is there benefit from the upstream being loose in siloxanes in China, which you and peers have been citing? Can you capture that? And more broadly, what is the raw material basket doing looking forward to the rest of the year for silicones explicitly? Thank you.

OK, Tom. This is Chris here. And I will start with the first question you had on the polysilicon. Well, obviously, now with the final ruling of the anti-dumping and countervailing duties, there is more clarity on this part. These numbers are higher than expected. I think that is kind of also the market view on it and that will lead and has led to our understanding to also an adjustment of supply chains. You can read a lot about shifts towards Laos or shifts towards India, for example, or Indonesia. Your question on what prices are we selling, we are definitely selling at the outside China price and not at the inside China price. That didn't change at all. And as you also mentioned last time, we have a firm contract in place. And obviously, our customers from today's perspective see a benefit in buying this material in order to produce UFLPA-compliant solar modules. Thomas Tobias here for the silicones question. Your question was around, is a loose market on the upstream helpful for us, especially also zioxane prices in China being low? As I said, our focus on specialty silicones, but we are also, as we are fully integrated, we are also still selling some standard products. So softer upstream is not supportive because we also have to run our plants at high utilization and then have a dilutive effect in our margin from the standard product. But the focus going forward is to have less and less and less of this and move more to more differentiated products. In general, on the raw material side, there are some positives. We see a little lower silicon metal and energy costs supporting us. But on the other hand, methanol, the other raw material, is going up. But that is essentially for everybody the same. And it's not a huge trend that we are talking about in this year.

Just one quick follow-up on that. So have you seen the maximum switch now back to specialties? You're now running at the optimum or the maximum mix of specialties versus commodities and silicones, or is there more to come?

There's more to come.

Okay. Great. Thank you very, very much.

The next question comes from John McLoveling from HSBC. Please go ahead.

Thank you and good afternoon. On your increasing sales of semi-grade polysilicon, could you just update us on where you are in terms of market share and ultimately your scope for further sales increases in this market? And the second question is also on polysilicon. I mean, your base case guidance midpoint assumes improvement in the second half in demand, as well as your ability to sell from inventory. I mean, how confident are you today on that happening versus three months ago? Thank you.

Okay, John, this is Chris. I will take your questions here. Well, on the semi-grade, I mean, as you said, in recent calls, We assume our market share is around 50%. We are expanding with our new edging line in Bukhausen, which will be officially opened here in July. It's well progressing. The final steps of the installment of the checking of the systems, and as you also said, a huge part of the volumes are already under contract for this new plant. And it will enable us and our customers to deliver new high-quality material, which is essential for new applications in the semiconductor world. And from that perspective, it will give us opportunities for further growth, which might also lead to an increase in market share. Your second question was on the guidance for the silicon. And let me reiterate what we said last time. So the lower end of the guidance, the $100 million, so the logic behind that was that we say the business in this year would be a continuation of what we saw in the second half of last year. And that is essentially also what we saw in the first quarter of this year, excluding, of course, the IRA benefits. We do see the potential that there is an increasing demand. And why is that coming up in the – probably in the second half of the year? Because we still believe that – are convinced that the U.S. market will remain a premium market for solar applications. And from that perspective, that there will be demand for U.S.-compliant modules and hence U.S.-compliant polysilicon. And I think now customers, as we said in the prior question, customers are reshuffling their supply chains. And that also includes reshoring to the U.S., And that could be the uptake of our guidance coming closer to the midpoint that there's more demand for this material.

Very clear. I mean, in your experience, how quickly can this happen? Because the solar industry has historically been quite nimble at kind of moving around, let's say, tariff-related kind of government-imposed restrictions. I mean, is this a one-quarter switch, or is this likely to take longer?

Yeah, well, we've seen in the past that, you know, the industry can move rather quick. And so I would say about one to two quarters would be a fair assumption.

Yeah. Thank you.

And we have seen, I mean, we have seen inventories in our hubs, that was in 19, that our inventory came down significantly just in a few weeks. the supply chain can react pretty fast, I would say. Yes, we have seen that.

The next question comes from Chetan Udeshi from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking my questions. First, on polymers, I think I understand you are a bit more balanced, but can you remind us in your silicones business, how is your trade position in North America and U.S., especially from what I understand, you don't really have any upstream production. So are you importing from your German business into U.S. or are you buying from others in the U.S.? And I guess, you know, can you confirm that given silicones as a group is exclusive from the reciprocal tariffs. Anyway, the impact for you, even if you are importing from Germany, should be rather minimal in your business. The related question is on your polysilicon business. I mean, you need silicon metal. And can you remind us where are you sourcing silicon metal from for your U.S. polysilicon production? And is that something that... would bring more cost from a tariff perspective. The second question is just going back to your point earlier on volatility in orders, which I understand. But if you were to just sort of draw a trend line in your silicones business, are your volumes still tracking up year-on-year at this point, or have they started to flatten out or even decline year-on-year? Thank you.

Okay, Jitan, let me start with the with the first question on the silicones, the U.S. and the trade position. And maybe let me start with a general statement for the group. And, you know, obviously we did our homework and made an analysis on what are the impacts of the trade restrictions after Liberation Day. And so we come up to a number of about 20 to 30 million for the entire group. based on these original Liberation Day duties. Now, they have been postponed, and now we have only 10% effective so far in place, so that number would be even lower. But as you mentioned, and I can confirm this, most of chemicals are actually excluded, not only the silicones. And I think when you hear from reports from peer companies from us, It's a similar picture. Most chemicals are exempt from the duties, and that's the reason why we see around overall 20, 30 million for the whole group, and a part of that is silicones. But, yeah. Cheating on the silicon metal sourcing for our U.S. plant for polysilicon. As far as I know, we mostly have it domestically. There are two suppliers that we can source from. So I wouldn't see an impact from any tariff, yeah, eventuality in that respect. And with your question to silicones and orders and how have they shaped up, I would say we had seen a somewhat weaker order entry starting in mid of March, but it was definitely not a cliff. It was then getting back better again. So we also had some stronger days. So it's really that we are talking about a little uncertainty that is also coming through in our order patterns already. So it's more volatile, but it's also including some stronger days. So that's why we still have ahead of us a muted second quarter seasonal recovery with all the uncertainty, depending on how things develop, for sure.

And if I can follow up, what do you think is the impact Walker will see, if any, from the announced closure of Dow's siloxane production in the UK?

Well, Jitan, we saw that announcement and obviously it's due to the competitive situation. That's what you can read about it. Obviously, we don't know more details than that and they would be the perfect guys to ask. But let me make just a general statement. If you look at the global siloxane world There is overcapacity globally, which is mainly or almost entirely in China. And now if you look again on a global scale, if some capacity is going to be idled and getting out of the market, I think in general that's a positive sign. But that's all we can say at the moment because I think there's also some unclarity on the time schedule on that.

Understood. Thank you.

The next question comes from Sebastian Brey from Burenburg. Please go ahead.

Hello, good afternoon, and thank you for taking my questions. I have two, please. The first is on the underutilization of infrastructure in the other segment, because this has got, it's starting to have a substantial effect on the P&L. Is this related to what's happened in polysilicon? In other words, if polysilicon runs at 50% utilization for the next few quarters, Does the other line stay stuck at a lower level than had originally been anticipated? Or is there any reason to assume the situation improves in Q2 or Q3? My second question is on biosolutions. Is it a disadvantage for WACKER potentially in the biopharma segment to have Europe-only production? How much of the current production from the biosolutions segment is exported? Thank you.

That will be a question on others and our infrastructure. As I pointed out in the speech, the others was held back significantly against prior year and underutilization of group infrastructure is just one component. The other elements are lower equity income and hedging costs. Allow you to understand a bit better what group infrastructure also included. I also mentioned that the power output of our hydro plant in Borkhausen was lower. This was just due to the reason that we have lower water levels at the start of the year. And compared to that, we could produce less electricity. And this is a super efficient plant for us. And this also caused a deviation against last year. So, yes, for sure, there is a bit of the component that underutilization in polysilicon is also leading to lower utilization in infrastructure, but there's also, I mean, there's various other reasons that explain in total the difference against prior years. Sebastian, on your second question on a potential disadvantage for BioSolutions having only EU assets, first of all, BioSolutions does have some assets also in the U.S., especially if you think about our cyclodextrin business, which is produced in the U.S., and also for our biopharma business with the San Diego side, we have activities and operations in the US. So it's not totally EU-based. There's a big share in the EU. But if we look at how projects are won and how projects are dealt with customers, typically it's all about having the right capabilities, having the right people, having the right capacities. And the question of regional setup is not a prime one. So from that perspective, my answer would be there's no disadvantage for us with the footprint we have in our solutions.

That's helpful. Thank you for taking my question.

As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star followed by one. The next question comes from Geoff Hare from UBS. Please go ahead.

Yeah, good afternoon. Most of my questions have been asked. I did have one remainder, and this is probably a slightly odd question on tariffs. But do you see any areas across the group where you could actually benefit from tariffs, i.e. where you have lower tariffs on products that you will supply into the U.S. versus maybe Chinese products which have much higher tariffs?

Well, Jeff, that's a very good question, but I think I would love to give a good answer on that. But unfortunately, I cannot because the situation is that volatile. that it is really hard to predict what will be the impact on us or on our customers. And, yeah, there's not much more really to say, because I think also the tariff scheme with China is definitely not sustainable for neither side, in my view. And there needs to be a change in that. And therefore, I think what we see at the moment are just, yeah, a day-to-day perspective on what could happen and therefore I cannot give you a good answer on that.

Okay, thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I would now like to turn the conference back over to Jörg Hoffmann for any closing remarks.

Thank you. Thank you all for joining us today and for your interest in Wacker Community. Our AGM is happening on May 7th, and our next conference call on the second quarter of the 2025 results is scheduled for July 31st. As always, please don't hesitate to contact the IAR department if you have further questions on Wacker Community.

Thank you for your interest.

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