Adtraction Group AB

Good morning and welcome to the presentation of Attractions 2024 results, Q4 results and presentation of a little bit of an outlook for Q1 and Q2. If you have any questions, please post them online and we will do our best to answer them in the Q&A session right after the presentation. Please leave your email if you want us to get back to you in case we don't have a chance to answer your question. We founded Attraction in 2007. We developed our proprietary platform for 18 to 24 months, and then we launched the service in 2009. In the first couple of years, we were only active in Sweden, but fairly soon our services were requested also in our neighboring countries. We started by establishing an office in Finland in 2014. We had a local team. a local company, a local office, and above all, local relationships. This worked out great, so we used the Finnish experience as a blueprint in the rest of Europe, and we're currently present in 12 different markets with local presence and local relationships. In 2021, we listed our company on NASDAQ First North. One of the main reasons for doing that was that we wanted to do more in M&A. I think that most people would agree that the past three years or so have been challenging from an M&A point of view, but we have still managed to acquire two companies, Ad Service in 2023 and Ad Record in 2024. Before we were listed, we acquired Connect in Switzerland and Digital Advisor in Denmark. I would say that we are by far the most active acquirer in our industry, and we're also far from done when it comes to M&A. I will comment upon the M&A situation a little later on in the presentation. Also, I would like to highlight that our focus now is to get back to growth, and an important part of that is, of course, to grow in Europe. So the short story of the fourth quarter and 2024 is this. We have seen a weak market, especially in the Nordics, and Nordics is Attraction's home market. That's 75% of our growth profit. And when we have negative growth in the Nordics, we will also have negative growth for the group. We have performed better in Europe, I would say. Attraction remains profitable. We deliver healthy EBITDA. And we also have very strong cash flow. The board of directors has suggested a dividend of two kronor per share for the year. And I think that this is pretty good considering that we have acquired a company in the year. Our EBIT is actually lower than the last year. So this is a testament to the strength of our ability, the strength of our balance sheet and our ability to generate cash flow. I would also like to remind everyone that we did divest Klara Loan in March last year, and this still impacts our growth rates, of course. And I will illustrate that a bit later on in the presentation. Our focus now is super clear, super clear. We need to get back to growth. And we currently expect that to happen in the second quarter of 2025. In my opinion, the markets have picked up a little bit and we think it's a realistic assessment to see growth in the second quarter 2025. So attraction is interested in growth, profitability and cash flows. And by now, everyone should know that we have not performed when it comes to growth. Sales in the fourth quarter dropped by 8%. Gross profit dropped also by 8%. When gross profit drops, EBITDA will typically drop even more because we have fixed costs to cover. So EBITDA in the quarter dropped by 28%. Cash flow was very strong. Andreas will talk a little bit more about that. We don't expect to have this cash flow every quarter, of course. That will fluctuate a little bit. But what we do know is that over time, we will convert a significant share of EBITDA to cash flow. So the dividend again, 2 kronor per share, and that will be paid in two tranches. The first one is expected to... be paid in April and the second tranche in October. Of course, this is subject to the approval of the shareholders meeting in April. So let us take a little bit of a look at 2024 and what's been going on here. Here's a graph that shows the sales development of attraction. And there's two things that stand out here, I think. The first one is that we've grown every single year since we started the company, except for 2024. When you look at this graph, you can see it still looks like attraction has growth momentum. I believe that we do, but obviously we need to demonstrate that by returning to growth on a quarterly basis. this slide shows the growth profit the decline in growth profit is less dramatic than it is for sales and it's even even less dramatic if we add back Clara Loan which was divested so if we divest the business of course that's going to impact our growth growth rates going forward and if we add back Clara Loan here then the development from a gross profit point of view looks almost stable and please remember that internally we are much more concerned about gross profit than we are about sales because gross profit is modeling the belongs to the company and the company's shareholders so summarizing 2024 it looks like this we had sales of 1.2 billion a gross profit of 230 million ebitda of 50 million and um actually amazing cash flows of 50 millions so this is a summary a quick summary of the fourth quarter and 2024 andreas will dig into the details of the fourth quarter in a minute and first i'd just like to share my world view a little bit so um We have two major insights that I have talked about before, and I want to reiterate those insights and talk a little bit more about that. The first insight is that many brands rely too heavily on the big platforms. And by big platforms, we mean Google, Meta, and to some extent, Amazon. Relying on a single supplier for customer acquisition or a single customer is always a super risky business, but it's even more risky if the supplier is a monopolist. I'll get back to this in a moment. Our view is that market marketing is needed here. Partner marketing is a great way to diversify your business. We, of course, talk to our customers at all times. And we like to ask them, so what share of your traffic do you get from Google, we ask. And they often say around 60%. And to me, that actually doesn't make sense at all. Getting 60% of your traffic from Google is a risky proposition. And here's why. Google is a monopolist. They have a 90% market share on search, and they're especially powerful on product search. Sure, maybe that is changing with the GPT and other platforms, but we really haven't seen that yet. So Google is a monopolist. But what's more, they behave like a monopolist. So if you ask a random e-commerce company, what's happened to your Google invoice in the past four or five years? And they will say, you know what, my Google invoice keeps increasing without the corresponding increase in the value provided by Google. So So the invoice increases a lot more than the number of clicks or number of transactions. And this is how a monopolist behaves. They have pricing power and they they will continue to increase prices as long as they can. I think that there are other problems with Google also. We see that maybe they don't like a certain vertical, then they make sure that that vertical stops receiving traffic. In the past couple of months, we've seen that happen to certain types of sites provided by big media houses. Google decides that these type of sites should not get traffic and then that's what happens. This is a risky proposition. It's risky to rely on Google for traffic when they behave like this. And I'm not saying that it's always happening. Obviously, Google is providing a great service. That's why people use them. But I am saying that it is a super risky proposition. In the graph that we see here, this customer gets 10% of their customers from partner marketing. A much better idea is to get around 25% from partner marketing. And a lot of our customers do exactly that. And this is a much better way to distribute risk. Then there's another aspect of uh the of the of the platform companies that i like to highlight and that is privacy so partner marketing not only attraction but all partner market marketing companies are great from a from a privacy perspective and the reason we say that is that um Whenever a transaction happens at an e-commerce company, we only ask for two things. We ask for order value, and we ask for order number. And the order number can actually be anything. It can be a randomized number. So we essentially do not know who our customer's customer is, and we also do not want to know that. We don't need to know that to deliver our service. So partner marketing is great from a privacy point of view. Of course, we need to comply with GDPR. We need to have privacy policies. We need to have data transfer agreements and so on. Typically, this is a fairly uncomplicated process. My personal view, just to be clear on this, is that a lot of companies who do not really handle sensitive information spend far too much time on this. They spend far too much time on this. Small e-commerce companies need to have GDPR policies, even though they perhaps do not manage sensitive information. And in the meantime, the true privacy villains continue to do whatever they want. I think you can guess who the true privacy villains are. I'll get back to that in a minute. First, I want to comment on another thing. And that is stuff that the EU is doing when it comes to cookie consent and so on. In the last few years, we've seen the whole internet in the European Union go crazy with cookie consent requirements. I think that it's totally crazy to build a whole infrastructure under the assumption that people don't understand how cookies work. If you don't like cookies, well, erase them from your browser and get on with your life. The fact is that cookies are needed for a good user experience and the European Union is just making life more more complicated. Of course, we can deal with this and we do deal with this. I'm just very impressed by how the European Union is handling these matters. Perhaps we should focus on building companies rather than creating a complicated regulatory environment. And I actually think that the European Union is missing the goal here also when it comes to privacy. So I said before that partner marketing is privacy friendly. It truly is. As a reminder, we get order value and order number when a transaction happens. Facebook, and you can take a look at their site, there's something called the Facebook Pixel. Facebook wants e-commerce companies to report the following information when a transaction happens. Let's say that I go ahead and buy a toothbrush somewhere. I want to get a toothbrush. Then Facebook would like to know my email address, my phone number, my first name, my last name, my gender, my date of birth, my city, my state, my zip code. This is, of course, totally unreasonable. I just want a toothbrush. I don't need Facebook to have all of this information. And the e-commerce companies just want to sell a toothbrush. They are also not helped by giving this information to Facebook. I think this is actually quite crazy. And the reason that Facebook can do this is that it's pretty easy for them to get a consent. So users will give consent and tell Facebook that they can do whatever they want to, basically. that's what they do so google and facebook know everything about us and they want to know some more and why am i talking about this you know i'm talking about it because if i were an e-commerce company i would be a little bit careful to share data with facebook and google google also knows everything about pricing and they they adapt their own pricing to grab as much as they can from the e-commerce company's margin. This is my opinion and I truly stand by this. So to summarize, it's a good idea to not work too much with these companies because it's a risky proposition and it's also not good at all from a privacy point of view. We have very strong views on this. So summarizing this section up a little bit, partner marketing is complex and optimization is needed. This is our core message. This is what we've been saying for a while and therefore attraction is needed. The core features of partner marketing is that users only, or sorry, e-commerce companies only pay for sales and actual order, and they can expand their reach. They can reach audiences that they cannot reach without partner marketing. They can be seen on sites that they cannot be seen on without partner marketing. These are the core features. Pay for results and expand your reach. If I were a CMO or head of sales or something at an e-commerce company and I had understood that it's a great idea to do partner marketing, these are the factors I would look at when choosing networks. So there are many good networks out there and I would look at these factors. So how do I optimize my program or campaign? How do I make sure that I get the right volume at the right price? And how do I make sure that I have the right mix of partners? How do I make sure that I only work with quality partners with great sites and great content? And how can I make sure that I get the distribution that I need, that I reach the consumers that I need to reach in the markets that I need to work with? Well, obviously, Attraction has answers to all of these questions. And the number one answer is that we work with active partnership management. This is the way to make sure that we get the right volume, at the right price. So this optimization is what our account managers and partner managers do all day. And it requires knowledge and a lot of information to get this right. We get it right all the time because we are sitting in the flow of information. It's also important to work with quality partners. Each partner and each site is manually approved before we allow them in our network. Finally, we have the idea of local presence and European reach. We think that relationships are local, so we need to be local to really optimize relationships. Then we've done something a little bit different this year. So Attraction is the Nordic market leader. And the way we think is that it's our responsibility to serve basically all customers, all e-commerce companies, also smaller ones. Ad Record has a great track record of providing an amazing service to small and mid-size e-commerce companies. And Ad Record fits perfectly So what's happening now is that we are broadening our service offering and we will also work with smaller advertisers. And one of the things that's important to understand here is that for smaller advertisers, it's possible to automate the service to a greater extent and have a little bit of less emphasis on active partnership management. So what we're doing now is that we're implementing this in Sweden and the Nordics, and then we're rolling it out in Europe later on. But this is a bit of a change in our strategy, and we think it makes sense to address the entire market. So we stick to our financial goals. We want to grow by 20%. We want to have an EBITDA margin of 7%, and we should pay a dividend of 30% to 60%. uh are actually paying a little bit higher dividend this year and that's because cash flows are very strong and because we have a strong balance sheet and it's also of course related to uh i would say the lack of m a activity that we see and i'll get back to that in a in a little while here so this is our growth rate um the last couple of years and we've consistently beaten uh our sales goal and then we are clearly not doing that in 2024. again this is our top priority for next year so it break looking at gross profit and breaking things down a little bit we are losing gross profit because of divestments then we're adding a little bit of gross profit from m a that is ad record and then we are or rather not growing, we have negative growth of minus 8% in existing markets. I think it's interesting to talk about the number of employees because that tells us a couple of things. First of all, this is the single most important cost item for attraction. And it also tells us something about the direction of the business. You will see a slight increase in the number of employees here in the fourth quarter. And this is mainly related or actually only related to the acquisition of ad record. We added, I think, around nine employees. So here's the cost base per quarter. We said before that that's going to be fairly stable even after acquiring ad record. I think this holds true. So we had restructuring costs of 3 million in the quarter, and that is related to layoffs. So adjusting for that costs were 44 million, and that includes 2 million that's related to ad record. So that's the cost base, and EBITDA margin was not great this year. It's not that bad either. It's sort of at the same levels that we've seen before, but obviously we have higher ambitions. I will note that the margin was a little bit higher in the fourth quarter, and this is an effect of the fact that gross profit typically is higher in the fourth quarter, whereas the cost base is essentially the same. So now Andreas will dig in a little bit deeper to the fourth quarter.

All right. And then we start with the net sales, which ends up at 344 million in the quarter. And that's a negative growth of 8%. Looking at gross profit, we have 66 million. Also here, negative growth of 8%. If we were to look at only the core business, the platform, so to say, we have slightly less negative growth of 3%. And here we also include ad record. We can also look at our gross margin, who has been stable for five consecutive quarters, slightly above 19%. We also expect this to be true going into 2025. Then looking at EBITDA, 18.4 million is a decrease with 28% and EBITDA margin of 5.3%. The higher decrease in EBITDA than in growth rates, of course, is due to our operating leverage. However, When we get back to growth, which we expect to do in 2025, we will again start to enjoy the fruits of our operating leverage. Simon also mentioned that the cost base have been stable. The minor increase we've seen in the fourth quarter is due to the acquisition of Ad Record, which added 2 million and the one of items mentioned of 2.7. Looking at the adjusted net result per share, it's at 0.93 Swedish kronor. That's a decrease of 27%. Then turning to verticals and starting with the e-commerce vertical, we can see that gross profit is at par with last year, 43 million. We can also see that ad record contributes with 9% to the growth of this vertical. We also grow on 7 out of 12 markets. And what's really interesting to see here is that we have growth on really important markets like the Norwegian market, where we can see both organically and acquired growth. But maybe even more importantly, we have only slight negative growth on the Swedish market and positive growth when we add the acquired growth. And of course, it's important that the bigger markets grow if we're going to get back to growth. So we have good momentum here. In the finance vertical, we can see 22.3 million. That's a decrease with 8%. And here we grow on two out of 12 markets. In the other vertical, we can see the results of the divestment of Clara Loan. And now we only have 0.3 million in gross profit outside of our core business, the platform. Then turning to geographies, starting with the Nordics, we can see 49.5 million gross profit. That's a negative growth of 11%. Looking at the core business again, we can see less negative growth of 5% and we grow on two out of four markets. It's the previously mentioned Norwegian and Swedish market. Turning to Europe, we have 16.3 million in gross profit. That's 3% growth. Here we grow on three out of eight markets. Then looking at the operating cash flow in the blue bars here in a longer period, you can see that the seasonality is also true in the fourth quarter of 24. We have a really good result here. Also good to look at is that the process improvements that we started with in Q3 and have continued to work on in Q4 and Q1 of 25 has also given good results and we expect good results also here in in Q1 2025. Breaking down the cash flow to its different components, starting with operating cash flow, as previously mentioned, really good result, 30.5 million in operating cash flow. Investing activities, here we can see an outflow of 24 million. That is the result of the acquisition of Ad Record. In the financing activities, we have paid dividend of 16.6 million to the shareholders of Attraction Group. Meanwhile, also receiving the last dividend from Clara Lohan, who was in the quarter of 2 million. This gives us a total cash flow of minus 8 million in the quarter. And despite Having made an acquisition and paying dividend, we have a really strong net cash position of 107 million ending the year. This also gives comfort to the board of directors to propose and maintain the dividend of two Swedish kronor in the quarter. Sorry, for this year. I end the financial part of the presentation with a snapshot of Klaralån's contribution to the EBITDA. We can see that Klaralån had a meaningful contribution to the growth rates. However, when we look at the profitability, it was around 1% of the total EBITDA of the year of 23.

Thank you, Andreas. So, we're just going to comment on new regulation for consumer consumer credits that is being implemented in the swedish market and of course consumer credits is an important product for attraction and we're good at delivering customers so the big picture here is that i am not very concerned about these regulatory changes and the reason is that this is not a a huge part of our gross profit so in a worst case scenario we can lose a couple of percentage points of gross profit but i am not certain that that will happen actually so let me comment on on the on the laws that are already put in place or will be put in place and then there's also a proposed new law So starting in January, interest deductions are being gradually phased out. That means that interest costs are not tax deductible anymore. We actually have not seen a big impact from this regulation. Maybe there will be. We don't know, but currently it doesn't look like it has a big impact. Then in March, bigger changes will be implemented. We see an interest rate cap of 20% and also a cost cap. And obviously we have talked to our customers about this and it seems like most companies will simply adapt. They will change their credit scoring, they will change their offering and continue to offer credits to consumers. My personal guess is that we will not see a big drop in credit volumes as a result of this regulation. I may be wrong about that, of course, but that's my personal estimate. What I do know is that the maximum negative effect for attraction is a couple of percentage points of gross profit. Then there's another strange animal on the scene here. So the government has proposed that if you are lending money to consumers, you need to be a bank. And I'm saying that this is a strange animal for a couple of reasons. So first of all, the bank license is a heavy one. And the reason that a bank license is heavy is because it deals with consumer deposits. So people actually take their money and give them to banks and obviously The consumer needs protection and we need heavy regulation. But the weird thing here is that we are not seeing problems on the deposit side of things. We are seeing problems on the lending side of things, according to the government. And then the government is proposing a legislation that mainly deals with deposits. To me, this is a little bit strange, and I am not sure that they are addressing the real problems in a proper way. A better way to look at this would be to look at the lending side of things and impose even stricter regulation and stricter rules and also have a better supervision of that side of things. Better supervision is needed. So I probably disagree with these measures, but again, it doesn't matter what I think, we just need to adapt. I think the strangest features of the new proposed law is this, that if you're a broker, that is if you're Lendo or Enklare, who are great customers of attraction, you all of a sudden need a banking license here. This is clearly absolutely disproportionate. So an analogy here would be this. Let's say that I take the subway to work every morning and all of a sudden I need a pilot's license to jump on the subway. This is essentially what the government is saying. Brokers are fundamentally a very, very different business from banks. That's not what they do. They don't lend money. They don't receive deposits. They are experts at managing leads. So we have a number of... of great customers who are brokers, and we hope that we will continue to have a great relationship with them. But of course, there's some uncertainty regarding this law. So what is not uncertain, though, is this. As long as there is a demand for consumer credits, there will also be a supply of consumer credits. And attraction has an important role to play when it comes to matching consumers with the loan providers. That's the fundamental truth of this business. We will keep working at that. Finance and consumer credits remains important and we want to be there and we want to be there and in in e-commerce. So I hope that message is clear from our side. Then I've said earlier in the presentation that the M&A market is fairly tough right now. Yes, we did a transaction last year that was because Ad Record had managed to deliver growth and they were in a good position to sell their company in 24, but I'm guessing that there's going to be a few sellers on the back of 2024 numbers. So if you've delivered negative growth, you probably don't want to sell your company. You want to sell your company when there's better momentum. So there's not a lot of activity in the market right now. Another challenge right now is that one of the advantages of being listed is that typically you should trade at a higher multiple than uh private privately owned targets and you know that's probably not the case right now i'm not going to comment on on attractions valuation but what i do see is that there's not a multiple arbitrage to make so we will wait a little bit until there are better opportunities for us and i think there actually will be more opportunities when the market recovers because this market needs some consolidation I don't think it makes sense to only work in one market when there are so many cross-border opportunities and there's certainly room for more international players in Europe and in other places so finally I want to comment a little bit on the outlook here and I think it's important to understand that Q1 2024 is the last quarter that we own Clara Loan. So when we look back and look at growth rates, that will still include Clara Loan also for Q1. In Q1, we will also do a record migration. A lot of that work is already done, and I am not certain that we will finalize the migration in Q1, but it certainly looks like that. That means that we will not report ad record separately going forward. So starting in Q2, it looks like everything that we report will be organic and that is perhaps good to know. Thanks to the acquisition of Ad Record, we have a broader advertiser portfolio and a broader service offering. And I'm really, really looking forward to see how that will develop. We will be able to do more things now. Internally, we talk about back to growth. This is the main goal for 2025. We've said that Q line growth wise is going to be in line with Q4. And then we have to remember that everything was pretty good up until Q1 last year. So Q1 2024 was fairly strong and then Q2, Q3 and Q4 were weaker. So what we said in the report and what I reiterate now is that we expect to get back to growth in the second quarter. This is our current assumption and I believe that this will happen. So this was the presentation and I know that we have a few questions, so we'll try to get into those. So... I will answer some questions and Andreas will answer some questions. And we're doing this on Volley a little bit, so please excuse us if there's a pause here and there. So the first question is to Andreas. If you exclude the number of added employees from the ad record acquisition, how did the number of employees change from Q3?

And here's the answer is three to four people in attraction excluding ad record.

So that means that we added, I think we said before that we added nine people from ad record, and that means that three or four people left attraction, right? Yeah. You have announced one. This is also for you, Andreas. You have announced one of costs linked to layoffs in Q3 and Q4. Are you planning to continue with this in Q1?

So the layoffs we've done, we've taken the costs for now in Q4. And we do not expect the cost of this proportions to be happening again in 25. And any minor posts like this will not be posted in the reports. So, no, we do not expect this to reiterate in or getting back in 25.

Yeah. All right. And of course, the reason that this happened was that we had bigger costs and going forward, we will not have bigger costs like that. Then here's a question that I can actually answer because I listened to you, Andreas. In the cash flow statement, there's a received dividend of 2 million, and this is from Clara Loan, and that was part of the deal with Clara Loan that some of the shareholders' equity that was sitting on Clara Loan's balance sheet would be paid to Attraction. So then we have a few questions from the activity feed, and... first one is hi you've founded and run a great company for almost 20 years what is driving you to continue building this well thank you and it's not 20 years it's only 17 and we need to go for a couple of more years there's a lot of stuff that we need to do what is fun to us is that this company is constantly developing and we see an opportunity to continue to create value, we know where we're going. And I guess the main reason here is that we simply enjoy what we're doing. Thanks for that question. Is the 2 million cost related to ad record included in the total 2.7 million restructuring cost? I think that we're talking about different things here. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Andreas.

I can answer that, really. It's 2 million is the cost base of ad record. So that will be recurring in the future as well. The 2.7 million we're talking about here is due to layoffs in attraction. So those are not related. So it's really 2 plus 2.7.

Yeah, thank you. So here's someone who says that it's nice to hear our input on Google and Meta. Well, thank you. I'm happy that you're listening. And then here's a conclusion, which I actually agree with to some extent. Basically, what you're saying is that your customers are bad at using your services. So what are you doing to increase the spending for your customers? And also, how much sales do you think part of marketing can be in three to five years? So I'm not going to do a forecast of that because it's difficult when you don't even know the base number. what i can say is that this is the message that we bring to advertisers so we we talk about their google spend we talk about whether that is reasonable or not and some people actually think it's yeah we we spend 63 on google and we're planning to increase that to 75. i as a ceo would never ever run a company like that i think it's i don't want to say insane but i really i really question that strategy it's much better to to diversify. And you're right, dear questioner, it's it's totally our job to talk about this. And I think that our industry colleagues should talk about this, too, because it's not a dominating position like this is not good. If you get back to growth during 2025, will you be understaffed or can you handle increased volumes with your current headcount? So we can we can we can the main idea is that we can handle current volumes with our current headcount. With that said, we have started hiring a little bit here and there, and I expect that to continue. But it's not going to be anything like the massive changes that we did in 2022. We think that we can manage this stuff basically with the people that we have. Here's a tricky one. Roughly how many possible acquisition opportunities are there in Europe for attractions? So realistically, realistically, depending on, if you look at the core business, the core network business, I think there's five or six very attractive companies out there. And the question is, are they for sale? We wanna buy them. And then there are other opportunities. So we can do stuff in the influencer space. There's other types of services that we can buy. So we're not limited to only acquiring networks, even if that's our main strategy. So then we have a couple of other questions that I will try to address here. And this is a good question that I love because it highlights the strength of our business model. So historically, how have your partners adapted to new conditions when something changes? You know, for example, Google becomes dominating. How do partners adapt to that? And I guess what's underlying this question here is how would partner drop to chat GPT and other stuff like that? Well, partners are great at doing this. They're super innovative. They're often small and quite flexible. And we've seen these transitions happen many times before that something changes in the market and our partners are there and they're grabbing that traffic and they're delivering that traffic to advertisers. This is actually one of the things that I love with our business model. And then a follow-up question there is that, can you see that your partners are getting traffic from the AI search engines? And the honest answer is that it's not yet. This is not a significant part of our business. I'm sure that it will happen. We are monitoring this, but it's currently not happened. Then finally, there's a question about migration. it says you've done a number of migrations historically and you've started the migration of ad record how comfortable are you today doing this stuff compared to to how it was before well i would say that we have a team that's just amazing at doing this that that does not include myself but it's a team that's that is just amazing at doing migrations and i would say that we are experts We are experts, and we are very confident in our ability to get this right. We're good at balancing risks and automating stuff. I actually think that the team is so good at this that I consider it an easy process. And that's, of course, easy for me to say, but this is how good they are. All right. Thanks for those questions, I think. And that's it. So thank you everyone who joined the call and thanks for posting questions. And that's it for us. Thank you very much and goodbye.