BillerudKorsnäs AB (publ)

Welcome to the Billawood Q2 Report 2025 webcast and conference call. At this time all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speakers presentation there will be a question and answer session. To ask a question during the session you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question please press star 1 and 1 again. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your first speaker today. Lena Shatawa, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead. Thank you.

Good morning and very welcome to this presentation in connection to the Q2 Report that we have published this morning. With me is our President and CEO Ivar Vatne along with our CFO Andrej Kles. They will hold the presentation and afterwards take questions from the telephone conference. So with that we will get started. Please go ahead Ivar.

Thank you Lena and good morning everyone. And thanks for listening in this Sunday Friday at least here in Stockholm. It's a tale of two stories for a quarterly report. And I think it summarized quite well in the heading here on the slide. Another excellent quarter for region North America while we are navigating through more challenging conditions for region Europe. But let's get into the details. So next slide please. And if we start from the top we record flattened sales growth when adjusting for currency. Growth in North America and decline in Europe. A region North America continues to impress and record yet another excellent quarter. And 22% EBITDA margin is a level we are clearly happy with. In fact 22% is the highest profitability level we've had in North America since end of 2022. The situation for region Europe has been more challenging and market conditions have gradually turned more and more unfavorable during the quarter. And in essence we are navigating in a market where we face weak demand and supply over capacity. Now despite this and with our continuous strong focus on working capital discipline we have been able to produce an excellent cash generation coming in with cash growth from our pro activities of 75% versus year ago. The progress on our evolution journey in the US continues and we've taken new important steps during the quarter. And I want to share some more details on that part so let's get into the next slide please. Now evolving our product portfolio in North America towards packaging material is one of the top priorities for the company. And I'm both proud and excited to see the progress we're doing. We reach another important milestone during the quarter with 1000 tons sold of our each line tribute and low grammage carton board voyager. And overall we see strong interest amongst both the new and existing customers to carry out trials for the new products. And overall the feedback on the product quality and performance has been highly encouraging. It confirms again that the local US production within our industry is a good place to be where we can offer quality, speed, reliability and predictability. Also in terms of the capital project to enable even further exhalation in our evolution journey we are progressing as per plan. And I'm looking forward to providing you with more updates on this exciting journey as we move along in 2025. Next slide please and over to some market comments. And it is challenging to give a proper market read these days. And uncertainty in particular in the wake of geopolitical decisions seems to be the new normal and can change industry parameters literally overnight. But there is no doubt that some of the in-going optimism for demand recovery in region Europe for 2025 is a memory far away. The training conditions for most of our categories in Europe weaken during the quarter and there are three main reasons for that. So number one consumer demand is still muted and is yet to recover. The growth rates we are expecting long term for this industry and most of the categories we have exposure to. Number two we are seeing the impact of more production capacity coming online in the region first and foremost within board and three the tariff impact is real and we see now evidence of how the trade flows have started to change. Not only with volume historically being exported to into US but now due to import tariffs have some competitiveness and is partly relocated back into Europe. We also see some Asian volume struggling to find its way into US and puts more pressure into markets in the Middle East. And overall we do not expect the situation to improve going into Q3. Now the notable exceptions we operate on the more normalized conditions are liquid packaging border here in Europe and our graphic and speciality paper in North America. For both these cases we are expecting to continue their solid performance. We've continuously seen over the past quarters. So with that I'd like to hand it over to André.

Thank you Ivar and good morning everyone. Let's start by looking at our sales which declined by 5% and that was entirely driven by the FX head gains meaning our currency neutral sales were flat versus year ago. Now the strengthening of Swedish Grona we've experienced first and foremost by the end of the first quarter is now fully impacting both our sales and also results. The positive pricing of 2% is mainly coming from our Europe region while North America was quite flat versus year ago. Volume wise the negative impact is entirely from region Europe while North American region had a solid volume growth of 8%. Next slide please. EBTA margin in the second quarter was in line with the last year at 9% and also here a tail of two stories. North America improving margin with 4% points while Europe seeing corresponding decline. And despite significant change in FX rates versus last year the impact on our results was relatively limited due to our hedging program in place. The -over-year cost inflation mainly from Nordic pulpwood costs was more than compensated with improved pricing. However the volume growth in North America was also offset with decline in Europe and volume was weighing negatively year over year. Despite significant inflationary pressure on our fixed costs not least through the salary increases we are maintaining strong cost discipline and we were able to limit the cost inflation year over year. The negative amount in other is almost entirely related to negative year over year effect from inventory revaluation. We had no major impact now in quarter two but we had sizable positive impact last year. Now our quarter two was maintenance heavy with three mills in Europe having a maintenance shutdown and those were executed as planned and also on budget. Excluding the heavy maintenance costs our performance for the group in terms of EBTA margin was in line with quarter one despite lower volumes. And now let's move over to the regions. Next slide please. Performance in region Europe weakened during the quarter and we did end up with sequentially lower sales volumes for the region across most categories. The earlier announced price increases for Container Ward and Sacking Craft paper were partly implemented with clearly better implementation rate within Sacking Craft while Container Ward has been more challenging. Into the third quarter we will have somewhat lighter maintenance schedule with cost impact of around 280 million. And now let's move over to region North America. Next slide please. The reported sales for the region declined by five percent but clearly heavily impacted by actually up by five percent. The EBTA margin as I said improved with four percentage points versus year ago and was also up percentage points sequentially versus the first quarter. And it's now been a sixth consecutive quarter with positive margin trend which has been driven by volume recovery and continued stable cost and pricing situation in the region. The sequential improvement from the first quarter was primarily driven by price increases for graphic paper. Operating rates for the region continue to increase to 76 percent in the second quarter and we are now actually coming to the levels we haven't seen since beginning of 23 which is very encouraging. Now heading into the third quarter we will carry out maintenance shutdown at Escanaba Mill and we will have additional maintenance partly in preparation for the evolution program. So we expect sequentially higher maintenance costs of 160 million for the region. Next slide please and I would like to spend a couple of minutes on the input costs. Now in terms of the input costs for the regions we are now in a much more stable situation also in Europe. The cost development during the second quarter was fully in line with our expectations and we had a net cost relief of approximately 40 million primarily from electricity prices in Europe. Heading into the third quarter we expect continued stable cost situation for both of our regions and on the Nordic pulpwood we now see a trend shift. The pulpwood prices are coming down. We decreased our price list during the quarter and have seen further downward adjustments by wood purchases. We see good availability that will continue into the third quarter and expect also that the downward pressure on the pulpwood prices will intensify. With that said the cost impact for billiard in the third quarter will be limited and that is due to our sourcing mix during the summer where many of the saw mills are closed but we certainly expect the cost to come down further into the year. Next slide please. Now with the newly introduced financial targets we are emphasizing cash generation as one of our key priorities and I'm particularly pleased with the cash conversion of 131% for the second quarter. Our cash flow from operating activities more than doubled compared to the first half of last year and we are making a good progress on reaching the cash conversion of about 80% for the full year. The strong cash generation is certainly supporting our strong balance sheet and even after dividend payout during the quarter we maintain our leverage in line with the first quarter at around one times EBTA. In terms of the capex for the rest of the year we now estimate the total capex of 3.1 billion for 2025 which is 400 million lower versus our previous outlook and that is primarily driven by slow investment pace for our evolution program in North America and we now expect that that amount will be pushed into 2026. With that I would like to hand it back to you Ivar.

Thank you Andre. Now an essential part of our strategic framework the way forward is to focus on items we can control and avoid being distracted from mixed factors that we literally can't do nothing about and challenging conditions mean we truly need to be our best to further improve our competitiveness and outperform our peer group. We have successfully been disciplined on fixed cost spending and need to be even more aggressive and creative in finding new additional saving opportunities throughout our cosplays. As you just heard from Andre, protecting a cash flow is of utmost importance and we certainly aim to continue the strong start of the year and land the year with 80% plus conversion. Another priority is to carefully drive a most profitable and most structurally attractive mixed opportunity with focus. And lastly improving our male efficiency across and secure supply chain reliability and predictability towards a large and diverse customer base. These points have been our priorities for some time and they will continue to be so. So next slide please. So to round it up and going into Q3 we do expect continued solving conditions for region North America. In region Europe there are some variations across channels and categories but overall we would expect the market to stay weak and input cost should stay quite flat across the regions. So with that I hand it back to operator for a Q&A.

Thank you. To ask a question you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question please press star 1 and 1 again. We will now take the first question and your first question comes from the line of James Perry from City. Please go ahead.

Good morning and thanks for the presentation. Just a couple, I'd first like to ask about the wood costs. You mentioned that you've seen the first price reduction in the Nordic wood prices. Are you able to share what kind of magnitude of price decreases you're seeing and whether you think it's temporary relief or negative momentum from here? And secondly on North America you said the positive sales volumes and the higher interest in domestically produced products. I know it's difficult to determine but do you have any sense as to whether customers are looking for a temporary work around or have they been interested in long-term contracts?

Thanks. Hi, good morning James. I will start by commenting on the wood costs. So as I mentioned we have seen a good availability in the beginning of 25 and that situation has continued also in the second quarter and will continue in the third. We have seen prices in Baltics and also in Norway coming down. We decreased our price list with 5 to 10% from the list prices and seen additional price reduction since then. As I mentioned the quarter we have a bit different sourcing mix but if we would look at the impact beyond that at this point and with the price list changes we have seen we would estimate a positive cost impact of 40 to 50 million but again not much of that in quarter three.

So hi James I can take the second question about North America. I think it's difficult to get customers to sign in blood that this is long term but I can say that that process of going through the qualification and changing your suppliers to a certain extent is a bit painful. There are some efforts being required on both sides and you can certainly say that once you come to this step that you have been finding a way in that is expectation it will remain and it stays so hence a much more long term. So we are clearly very much under the view that once we start opening the doors and can illustrate a good power performance that is the start of the journey and we expect just this now to snowball further into bigger figures going into 2026.

Okay thank you very much.

Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Lars Schellberg from Stiefel. Please go ahead.

Yeah good morning and thanks for taking my questions. Just to follow up on a pulpwood one you mentioned both things are Norway prices have declined and then you talked to list prices which I suppose refer to Sweden. That's not the same as prices are coming down just because you call list prices down. So the question is are you having any success in lowering those list prices i.e. wood flowing in at lower prices also in Sweden? And then I just wanted to get some color on Asia. You mentioned you know liquid paperboard markets being particularly challenging and competitive and we can kind of see from your liquid paperboard sales that they're you know local competition in particularly in those Asian markets in liquid paperboard which used to be sort of a broader speaking oligopoly between three producers and are those if that is indeed the case are they breaking into other markets? You mentioned some volumes generally I suppose from China coming into to the US but it would be interesting to hear some color on that specific market. And then finally in North America you speak to a solid performance but then again if we actually take away the benefit of you know the maintenance activity the schedule change you're actually down in North America. So what explains that so to call it 50 million drop year on year in underlying performance adjusted for maintenance? That's my question.

Good morning Lars. I will start by providing additional comments on the pulpwood. So when we look at the price list in the Nordics in Sweden again those are underpinned by good availability and the moves we see on the price list and we certainly expect that we will be able to purchase wood going forward on the newly announced price list.

Yeah I can, morning Lars I'll jump into the second. I think it's a fair question and let me just try to give them color on what we see on the liquid packaging these days because it is a bit of a mixed picture. We are seeing that the market is more or less flat and that is more on the kind of global basis you know around zero to one percent. So there are some pretty hefty regional differences China now is in decline while we see more growth in India other items in Southeast Asia and North America and Europe is also quite flat and our business then in terms of the supplies into Europe are performing well and more under stable conditions. So it is so that you know that much more challenging Chinese market and consumption being much more muted that that hits us as well. That is a big market for us to deliver into and hence that Asia not growing and in decline that you know is certainly an effective deal. It is also so that some of our customer base in Yasomu-Liki markets in Asia are losing share and that also of course impacts us based on our exposure to certain customer base. But I can confirm to your question that yeah we are meeting some competition from local players in China in particular and they've been able to gain some meaningful share over the last time. Yeah if you take it off

Andre. Getting back to the performance in North America they have of course been heavily impacted or the results in the Swedish corona has been heavily impacted by the change in effects so that shaving off approximately one percentage point in EBTA year over year.

Katja if I can just have a photo up or another question. Kraft paper seems to be comparatively stable and reasonable in Europe. Can you share any color on how that market has progressed? You call that better pricing realization in the market which would suggest less of an issue with I guess excess supply and less demand weakness but some incremental color on that would be helpful.

Yeah I can take that one. Yeah I mean there is no doubt that you know the excess supply is certainly most notable within board particularly within paper board. I think from what we see on our side is yeah a bit more balanced market but the underlying consumption is still weak and it worsened a bit during the quarter. Yeah customers holding a bit back on some borders and it has just been a sentiment that we just felt more on the demand side but yes it is a relatively better shape versus what we see on the board side. Thank you.

Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Robin Santiverta from D&B Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Yes thank you very much. First question is related to the demand in Europe looking at your delivery volumes down 6% year on year and I think you provided three reasons for that but I was also wondering whether there's potentially some destocking among your clients given this uncertainty that we have after liberation day or is this underlying demand this minus 6%?

Yeah hey good morning Robin. No I think it's always difficult to pin it down exactly what drives what but yes I think there is a part of that maybe towards the end of the quarter where in particular a lot of a customer base as well look to protect you know their cash generation since market is tough and yeah I mean I think if you also look at some you know the historical behavior will meet when poll pricing tend to fall as it has during the quarter. I'm sure also there are certain customer behavior that would expect you know material packaging pricing to follow and again hold a little bit back so there's a part of it for sure especially towards the end of the quarter difficult to pinpoint exactly how big that impact is.

Thanks. Second question I have is the bulk wood pricing could you just provide a bit more detail about like per cube where we stand at the moment is it so that you have got the price by 30 sec per cube and then there's some 50 sort of sec per cube cuts out there right now and if that would be the case wouldn't the impact be a bit bigger than 40 to 50 once that would come through the PNL fully?

Yeah I can continue Robin so we have decreased our price list with 30 sec per cubic meter on the softwood and 50 actually on the on the hardwood and these are also the changes we have seen you know happened since then. In terms of the impact for reminder of the year it depends on you know which price list you purchase on in which regions to which mills but currently our assessment is that will be in that region.

And can I just ask what is the PNL lag from sort of you buying this wood at lower prices three months or? It's two to three months approximately. Thanks. A final question just a quick one on capital allocation the balance sheet is still quite strong I understand it's tough out there particularly Europe what about potential share by backs is that something that now the stock is close to what is it the five-year low is that something that you could take a look at this autumn?

Yeah no it's a fair question I can just say that there's no discussions happening you know with the board on this but it's obviously not the yeah a normal discussion that will surface during second half of the year and of course we will come back if there are any news or any intervention we would decide or the board will decide but for now there is nothing it's full focus on our side to continue our you know improvement of of the items that we can control.

Perfect thank you very much.

Thank you your next question comes from the line of Linus Larsson from SEB please go ahead.

Thank you very much and a very good morning to everyone a couple of questions on Europe if I with volumes shipments in the second quarter were on their lowest levels that were seen for many years actually and I think they were even somewhat lower than you had expected yourself so is your message now that you're expecting the same level of shipments from region Europe in the this in terms of potential restructuring when you when you look at your your current footprint are there certain measures that you are you are evaluating?

Good morning Linus so in terms of volumes and getting a bit back to you know what Ivar talked about there are two things the first of all you know the underlying demand is not where we would expect it to be long term and we also have the oversupply partly due to you know capacity increases in the region but also change to the to the trade flows with those two things out there we do expect you know the situation for quarter three to remain weak but it is also with very high uncertainty around you know what things are going to change in quarter three and hence at this point it is just difficult to predict volumes for for the third quarter. Our order books are weaker now versus where they have been and you know when we went out for the first quarter but difficult to predict and provide any more specifics on volumes for for the third quarter at this point.

Hi morning Linus I'm just jumping into your second point which yeah I mean we do have a debility target of 15% EBITDA you know with clear regional targets broken down that we shared in the CMD we are certainly far away from that and the gap is in in Europe and as I mentioned in my part earlier we will need to be aggressive and creative on on the full cost base and continue challenge that might mean that there are additional structural savings that are coming and if so we will come back to that topic later in the year.

Cool thanks that's super helpful and then staying on on Europe just on price ASP came came down quite a bit the year and year in the quarter and if you could just help us dissect that please into what was currency what was mixed what was actually price and also what what your expectations are for pricing Europe and and mix in in the third compared to the second quarter.

Yeah Linus I can start with the second part of the question we don't again based on what I mentioned in terms of volumes we don't expect any major shifts in the mix heading into the third quarter just in terms of the pricing also looking forward I mean we are meeting a weaker market our starting point is to defend our pricing positions also on the back of you know stability in our input costs but we need to acknowledge the the weakness and we certainly expect some pricing pressure to come through during the third quarter first and foremost I think within container board and carton board but we will of course defend defend our positions if we look at the development in Europe year over year there has also been a hefty currency currency impact and if we look at the currency neutral sales for for region Europe they were down four percent versus last year and the majority of it was actually driven by by mix due to the weaker volumes we had this quarter.

Great that's also very helpful may I just add one one final question you wrote about about this negative inventory revaluation could you just please clarify that did you have how did you and if so how much was was the negative inventory revaluation in in the second quarter what was it in the first quarter and if you at all have any anticipation for the third quarter that would be of interest as well.

Yeah for the second quarter we had a negative revaluation impact of approximately 15 million so really no drama and where we would you know expect it normally to fluctuate but looking at the second quarter last year we had quite sizable positive impact of approximately 80 million so hence year over year quite significant deviation heading heading forward now we don't expect any any major movements there again based on the stability in the input toss.

Okay that's great thank you very much.

Thank you your next question comes from the line of Cole Harthorn from Jefferies please go ahead.

Morning thanks for taking my question I just like a follow-up firstly on Europe I mean when I go back the Q1 report you talked about decent order books and you know I know the market changed but I'm just wondering was the deterioration really in June that you saw the impact and kind of pull back in volumes and was the volume pullback compounded by the operating deleverage that you saw I mean is this really an operating deleverage across your your asset base effect rather than anything else and how can you improve the operating rates of your mills in Europe does it mean that you take some longer economic downtime and ways to to save costs or does it require more of a permanent solution to remove capacity thank you.

Yeah hi good morning Cole I can take that one no again I can confirm that the situation got gradually worsened during the quarter and yeah it is off that you know when we started the quarter our order books at that time looked a bit more decent and as also Andrea said now they are weaker than we now are in the beginning of of July I think it's again exactly difficult exactly pinpoint you know what what is what impact carrying its weight but there's just no doubt that you know consumer demand has been delayed in terms of getting to recovery and that is spreading you know gradual also to a customer base being worried about what underlying strength is and protecting their own cash generation and certainly the tariffs and the relocation of some of the volume back to Europe has just not helped but that it was a gradual impact that you know intensified towards the end of the quarter no doubt yeah I think the I mean in terms of operating rates yeah there is a little doubt that you know we we need to manage this almost on a weekly basis it's one of the questions that the region you know rest of it's and we have some leeway to either take down time some days or you know slow steam but shortly now we run quite a bit lower than our normal capacity is and certainly also quite a bit lower than we would fall out so yeah it's the same for the whole sector we're doing what we can and you know we've been quite successful so far of maneuvering this and protecting our cash flow as you as you saw earlier in the in the deck

and then maybe if I just follow up on North America which is a more positive story but when I think about that North America division into the second part of the year can you give any commentary on you know how you're benefiting from kind of the import tariffs supporting your speciality and graphic paper you know are you comfortable that you're going to continue to be at a decent operating level there and then secondly I know pulp prices are lower but given potential tariffs on Brazil how would your business perform would you be a net beneficiary from pulp sales domestically in the US thank you

yeah why don't I start and André you can jump in if you have anything but yeah I want to say in the second half I mean comfortable and comfortable I think we are in a very good place and I think we've proven this now continuously over years that we are well placed and we have a very strong starting point you know where we can be the local player who offers speed and reliability and predictability that has worked super and and we expect that still to continue I mean as an example the order books are much stronger as a relative comparison in the North America when we go into you know Q3 sure there are topics and let's say that the phone is is ringing quite you know more frequently now in in the light of the uncertainty we are facing on tariffs we are certainly also calling a lot of our potential new customers to remind them of you know where we stand and we are ready to to deliver and surely that has helped us but it's not been a tsunami but it's been a good testament of the growth we've seen if though some of these tariffs will become permanent at a high level I mean that's surely going to be a benefit but it's speculation as you know at this time since this situation with the trade agreement can change extremely fast but overall we are in a good place and super impressed of what the North American team are able to produce quarter after quarter yeah on pulp it's interesting as you mentioned that we are a bit long on pulp in North America on the hardwood maple pulp about 200,000 or some 200,000 fish we'll see I mean there's no doubt that a big chunk of the tissue production capacity in North America is supplied from Brazil you know with that tariff now on the table will remain or stay I mean clearly that would benefit the remaining players of you know locally produced North American pulp will be one of them but again it's it's too interesting it can be an agreement or that is removed you know tomorrow or next week as we've seen but surely if it stays on long term this this should help us for sure

and then maybe just a clarification you called out you know the particular oversupply in in paper board but you know were you referring more to kind of the folding cotton the box board side rather than the container board or just a little bit of specifics around which was the relatively weaker more impacted by the oversupply

thank you yeah I think we talk about the carton board and and liner first and foremost I think fluting for us or at least our Nordic fluting is a bit more protected as you know it runs on on separate machines so yeah liner in particular coated on coated and and the carton is the is the bigger what we refer to thank you

thank you as a reminder if you would like to ask a question please press star one and one on your telephone keypad that is star one and one to ask a question we will now go to the next question and your next question comes from the line of Martin Malbuy from ABG Sundal Koliya please go ahead

Martin Malbuy yes good morning you had a couple of comments there on price quarter to quarter for Q3 are you basically saying flat or down with pulp

yeah I can I can repeat that Martin and good morning so again given the situation where we are we do expect weaker market conditions to persist for the European side into the third quarter again our starting point is that we will defend our pricing positions but we do expect some pricing pressure so any other guidance than that I wouldn't be able to provide at this point for North America we expect stable prices for for our paper grades now the pulp prices have come down we expect roughly five percent lower pulp prices for the North American region which is a half percentage point for the whole region then

thank you and on the maintenance cost you have some different numbers in the presentation compared to the report so if I get this right you say 440 in the presentation but like 380 in the report and what is the difference

yeah so yeah so the difference is that when we call out in the report is the planned maintenance shutdowns where we close essentially our recovery boilers and stop all of the productions but in the preparation for the evolution program in North America we will take some additional maintenance that is not caffex but it is maintenance and that will add some additional costs into the third quarter for North America

I see a last question on the financial items is minus 111 clean or is that FX loss including

now that is impacted by the changes in the FX rate so that includes revaluation of our cash balances in foreign currencies the underlying interest costs are around 60 million so the reminder is FX primarily excellent thank you

thank you your next question comes from the line of Oscar Lindstrom from Ganske Bank please go ahead

yes three questions from my side first two on volume curtailments how are you distributing the production curtailments between mills are certain of your mills in Europe more severely impacted by production curtailments are there perhaps even entire machines which are being taken offline yeah that's that's the first question if you just

give all of the three and then we'll start from the top okay

yeah so the first question is how you're distributing these production curtailments between mills and and and if there's entire machines which are being taken offline or if it's really just sort of day by day the second question is are other producers in your in Europe in your different niches also taking production curtailments what's your impression here and then the third question you mentioned that there was a delay in capex in North America for the reason for for taking down your full year capex guidance what's the reason for the delay is it by choice or is is the yeah is there another reason

so Oscar good morning i can start with the first two and i'm sure andre will jump in the third um i think when we have this situation where we start to see softer demand and we need to i call it wrestle through it it's one of the key points we we have in our sales and operational planning and and you know it's it's a bit of a chess board at most quite a lot there are no machines that are fully down that i can say and you know we have had slow steam or you know you can call it some downtime or curtailment more on the board side during q2 versus what we saw on the paper side i mean the paper in general have performed a bit stronger through the the quarter and i mean i'm merging that into your question number two i can with quite high likelihood confirm that i think this curtailment on production is the theme of q2 for you know pretty much everyone in the industry and uh yeah i i expect a lot of the same companies in the sector to report you know how they've been able and needed to take downtime and and slow to maneuver through what we currently see

yeah and i can take the question on the capex oscar so the 400 million that we uh pushed into 2026 from 25 that is primarily the evolution project in in north america and it is uh you know just more detailed planning of when we will carry out the to time that into the the maintenance shutdown but also make uh you know more uh investments during the next maintenance shutdown in escanaba so that's a deliberate choice to uh to adapt it better uh to the to the plant production there

all right thank you very much

thank you there are currently no further questions i will hand the call back to

you okay so with no further questions we have come to an end of this conference welcome back when we report our third quarter that is on the 23rd of october thank you for participating and bye bye thank you this concludes today's conference call thank you for participating you may now disconnect