Catella AB (publ)

Welcome to the Cotella Q2 2025 report presentation. For the first part of the presentation, participants will be in listen-only mode. During the questions and answers session, participants are able to ask questions by dialing pound key 5 on their telephone keypad. Now, I will hand the conference over to the CEO, Daniel Garrosh, and CFO, Michelle Fisher. Please go ahead.

Good morning everybody and welcome to this webinar where we will present Catella's interview report for the second quarter of 2025. My name is Daniel Gorosh and today will be my last presentation as the Interim CEO of Catella Group. Together with me in the room is also Rikke Lykke, Catalla's new CEO. And as always, we also have Michelle Fichier, CFO and Head of Investor Relations. So before we will walk you through the highlights for the second quarter of 2025, I'll leave the floor for Rikke to introduce herself.

Thank you, Daniel. I've truly been looking forward to this moment for some time now, and I'm thrilled to be back, to finally be on board. I'm just a few days in, but I must say that I've already experienced the strong engagement and entrepreneurial spirit here at Catella, which Catella is built on. I am happy to have this opportunity to be part of the market presentation today together with Daniel and Michelle, which is a very helpful opportunity to understand Catella even better. I am really looking forward to the route ahead and to get to learn all of our teams and get to know all our teams across Europe. The group has such a potential and I'm eager to exchange ideas about how we can continue to strengthen Catella's position and create lasting value for our clients, partners and shareholders.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm also really looking forward to working with you and continue to working with all our colleagues at Catella. in my new role as a leader of the corporate finance operations. So with that, let's move on and walk you through the highlights of the second quarter. And as usual, we will open up for a Q&A session after the presentation. And also, as always, the presentation material and reports are available on our website. So let's start the presentation with a brief overview of Gatella, starting on page three. So Catella manages nearly 160 billion in assets under management with a revenue base of 2.5 billion and with operations in 12 countries and assets in 16. And this is backed by almost 500 employees. Flipping to the next page. We operate in three property focused business areas, investment management, principal investments and corporate finance. And although real estate has had a couple of challenging years recently, we are supported by a long-term growth trajectory as portfolio allocation to real assets is increasing. Nearly 60% of our income stems from fixed recurring revenue, providing stability to the business as a whole. This number is a little bit lower than what we presented last quarter, and that is due to the reason of the significant impact from the sale of Cactus Towers, which of course is not classified as recurring revenue. We see sustainability as part of conducting our business both through long-term relationships to clients as well as through fund investments and investment projects. We manage our larger institutional investors' capital through funds and asset management mandates, and this is done through local teams with profound knowledge of their markets, leading to us being a true vertically integrated pan-European player. In Catalla we have a history of over 35 years and during that time we have established a pan-European platform and a strong and reputable brand name. So with that brief introduction, I'd like to start this quarter's presentation with a short market summary on the next page. So after some three years of a hesitant market with declining transaction volumes, we have seen a recovery during the last quarters and a slow uptick in transaction volumes. And the development during this quarter supported that as well with an increase in volumes of 11% compared with the same quarter last year. Fundamentals continue to support an increased market activity and these include lowered market interest rates, availability of financing and stabilized values at attractive yield levels. But at the same time, we are cautiously aware of the potential setbacks which could emerge from, for example, tariff turmoil and overall increased uncertainties. Nevertheless, we remain optimistic about the continued market recovery throughout the remainder of this year and beyond. So moving on to the next page for some key financial and operation highlights of the quarter. As seen, we had a very strong second quarter of this year. The majority of the improvement was driven by the successful sale of Capus Towers, which was announced and closed also in the second quarter. But also worth highlighting is that investment management showed an improvement year over year, and also corporate finance turned from negative results to slightly positive. The latter driven by a returning transaction market as well as efficiency initiatives being reflected in the P&L. also the negative effects we saw from fx translation effects in the last quarter turned to positive as the sec weakened somewhat during the quarter so if we then take a look at our business areas there are a couple of things i'd like to highlight starting with investment management inflows continue to exceed outflows and our avm stood at 157 billion by the end of the quarter We see an increase in demand and we have been successful in onboarding new asset management mandates, primarily in Denmark, the UK and Finland. And we expect more of the growth going forward stemming from asset management mandates. We are especially pleased of the assignment to continue the management of Capitus for the buyer following the disposal. But also worth pointing out is that the demand expands over a two year period and revenue is expected to be in the mid single digit range in a million sec. On another positive note, as the market slowly recovers, it also supports transactions within our funds and thus transactional driven revenues. Turning to principal investments, obviously the biggest news was the sale of Cactus, which was closed on May 19th. And this divestment ticks a major box in a strategy of deconcentrating our own balance sheets. Looking at our investment portfolio today, it is of course smaller, but it's also more diversified, both over asset classes and geography compared to previously. The current portfolio of eight property investments and four fund investments are progressing according to expectations and our plans. As announced this morning, we will use parts of the liquidity that is freed up through the sale of Cactus to repurchase up to 600 million of our outstanding bonds. And following that repurchase, we will still have relevant liquidity headroom to engage in new investments supporting long-term profitable growth with a balance in risk reward. As we have mentioned already last quarter, one investment was finalized during the second quarter. when we entered into a JV together with Barrings in the residential development project Vega. And the co-investment secures a long-term mandate with recurring revenue and also at attractive returns, some 15 to 20% IRR on the invested capital. And this partnership we have entered into is a blueprint of types of investments we want to increase going forward with a strong capital partner, limiting our own capital commitment, but at the same time securing fixed revenues and relevant returns on invested capital. And lastly, corporate finance. We saw a significant increase in transactions being closed during the quarter. And in all of our five markets, we experienced either increased or unchanged transaction volumes. This resulted in a net revenue increase of nearly 30 million. As I mentioned earlier, we have put a lot of focus on and continue to put a focus on to increase the efficiency and profitability in the corporate finance business area. And as seen this quarter, a large part of the revenue increase was also translated into improved EBIT this quarter. The quarter ended with 6 million in EBIT, which is up 25 million compared to last year. Looking ahead, we have retained our position amongst the top players in the markets in which we are present. And with a relevant pipeline of transactions in a market with increased probability of closings, we have an outlook that is tilted towards the positive for the second half of 2025. So turning to next page, I'd like to spend a brief moment just to reiterate our strategic priorities and the progress we have made during the second quarter. So as we discussed earlier, to take Catella forward, we have embarked upon a refined strategy with fewer strategic priorities to secure the capacity and focus on the how, i.e. how to implement the strategies and priorities we see as most important. The first one being to deconcentrate and to refocus principal investments. And looking ahead, we are firmly committed to decreasing the concentration, i.e. to increase the diversification of our investment portfolio. Furthermore, we have refined the criteria for new investments. We say that they need to be smaller in size. We need to be more diversified when it comes to asset class, geography and duration. And the primary focus for principal investments is to support the growth of the AUM within investment management through funds or mandates. And we also say that the investments need to meet the investment hurdles of 15 to 20% IRR, but could also be lower if it secures long and recurrent fixed fee revenue. So by narrowing down and focusing on the use of our own balance sheet going forward, our investments will fuel the growth of AVM and even further increase the stability of growing cash flows. And in the second quarter, the investment of Cactus was a major milestone for us. And also the new investment in Vega, as I mentioned, was also ticking the box of how new investments should be viewed and made. Secondly, even though we made significant efficiency improvements already and strengthened the corporate finance organization, we believe that we can do even better and more to improve the underlying profitability and also make sure to put the structure in place to support the growth. And here I see a clear scope to create a better joined up business where we take advantage of our strong local organizations, but at the same time, make sure to offer seamless offering to our pan-European clients. And now with me taking on the role as head of Corporate Finance Europe, this will be my top priority going forward. And during the second quarter, the improved market conditions supported top line growth, but more importantly, our efficiency measures, which we have focused on over the last years, were shown in improved margins and bottom line profitability. And thirdly, besides refocusing principal investment to support AUM growth, we need to continue to grow our existing funds, as well as launching fewer but larger internationally scalable products. Investment management is the main value driver of our business and it is of course extremely important that we continuously create products that are relevant and that are in demand from our investors. As mentioned, the main driver behind AOM growth in the quarter was through the new mandates we have secured, which we of course are very pleased with. But at the same time, we continue to focus our business development efforts on new products and strategies to raise capital for new scalable products meeting investor demands. So with that said, we continue to make progress on our key priorities in Q2 and continue to build Catella based on our core competences, which is capital and real estate competence and creating long term shareholder value. So moving on to the next page, discussing investment management with a bit more in detail. Investment management is our largest business area and has since the start shown an impressive average annual growth rate of over 15%. And despite the more cautious market and lower interest for core fund investments, inflows continue to exceed outflows during the second quarter. As previously mentioned, the main driver behind impressive inflows during the quarter and the last 12 months has been the onboarding on new asset management mandates. In here, our offering meets the market demand of refining and repositioning assets in the more cautious market, which we have seen over the last couple of years. Even if the AVM growth has been somewhat tilted towards new mandates, we have also been successful in maintaining AVM in our funds over this slower period in the industry, even though there was a slight decline quarter over quarter. Last 12 months, inflows amounted to north of 17 billion, split between 7 billion in funds and 10 billion in asset management mandates. In funds, the inflows were concentrated to residential products, and in mandates, the largest growth was seen in Denmark, followed by the UK and Finland. Outflows were mainly driven by expiring mandates in the UK. and Finland, followed by outflows in both residential and commercial funds. In the quarter, we experienced similar moves with inflows of new mandates in Denmark and in the UK, but negative flows from funds. Overall, this resulted in AUM growth driven by asset management mandates. Moving on to the next page. Fixed fees have remained stable over the last four quarters, around 210 million. Same quarter last year, a couple of larger UK mandates ended, as I mentioned, leading to a small decline in the fixed revenue base. As we now have on board new mandates, this should support fixed revenue growth going forward at these levels. Variable revenues showed a substantial increase compared to the exceptionally weak first quarter this year. This was an effect of transactions being pushed forward in time from the first quarter to the second. And as you also can see from the table, the efficiency improvements implemented over the year have resulted in the effect of a lower OPEX and an improved EBIT. Turning to the next page for an overview of principal investments. As already mentioned, the largest news of the quarter was the divestment of Cactus, and this divestment generates substantial profit for Catella's shareholders and frees up significant liquidity to both decrease interest-bearing debt and to secure headroom for new investments in accordance with our investment criteria, hitting return targets through a much more diversified portfolio. One of those investments was the residential project Vega in Copenhagen together with Barings that I mentioned earlier. And this investment was made in accordance with our investment criteria and caps our total capital commitment to 83 million over the development phase at the same time as it builds ARAM and secures long-term mandates. And besides the substantial EBIT contribution from the sale of Cactus, which amounted to 152 million, market values of fund investments also contributed positively, but were offset by some delays in milestone payments and developments being pushed forward in property investments, leading to a Catella shareholder EBIT contribution of 247 in the quarter. So let's continue with corporate finance on the next page. The overall increase in willingness to transact, supported by improving market fundamentals, led to an increase in transaction volume during the quarter. The improved top line also led to a stronger bottom line, also an effect of our work to improve the profitability in corporate finance. So even though we show a substantial improvement compared to the same period last year, we still expect the business area to demonstrate further margin improvement going forward. Looking at our markets, the Nordics showed a relevant increase in transactions towards more normalized levels, whereas continental Europe still is lagging behind in market recovery. Our view remains cautiously optimistic with more closings expected to come during the second half of this year and especially in the fourth quarter. So that was the operational overview. I'll now hand over to Michel, who will share a brief financial summary.

Thank you, Daniel. And good morning, everyone. As Daniel already alluded to, we're very pleased to deliver a strong second quarter. Obviously, the sale of Cactus is the main driver behind the EBIT outcome, but it also is worth highlighting that all business areas show improved figures compared to last year. Also worth mentioning in the other eliminations column is that according to the agreement, we also sold the remaining part of our shareholding in CatWave. As you remember, there was a first tranche last year. this was the second final one and this contributed with 30 million to other and eliminations in this quarter looking at operating expenses we saw an increase compared to last year but this is mainly connected to an increase in transactional based variable revenues and variable and thus variable compensations Also, the sale of Cactus had an impact on OPEX, both in principal investments, corporate finance, as well as head office costs. If we then take a look below EBIT, as you remember, the substantial negative effects we saw in the financial net last quarter due to FX movements. were in part reversed during this quarter as the stake weakened somewhat compared to our largest currencies. And worth highlighting and mentioning here as well is that our exposure to foreign currency has decreased following the sale of Cactus and that that also means that we should expect lower effects from currency fluctuations going forward. If we then move on to the next slide, which is a slide we've shared during a couple of quarters, and it is in the material to illustrate how we view our balance sheet, the net cash position. End of quarter, our equity ratio stood at 47%, and our cash position was 1.7 billion. And the slide you see in front of you summarizes how we look at our net debt or in our case, actually net cash position. As you all know by now, the overall majority of our liabilities are related to investments in development projects through principal investments. And these projects are in turn always valued at cost. If we start from the left and move to the right, summarizing all our investments, these amount to approximately 1.4 billion. And if we then add our current cash position of some 1.7 billion, we reach a total of 3.1 billion. If we then would deduct our market debt and other financing, this would take us to a cash position shy of 1.7 billion. So if we would do the exercise of divesting all current project value that cost and other investments in funding that was carried out, This would then lead to a negative net debt, i.e. excess liquidity after the debt being repaid. In this hypothetical scenario, we would still then have investment management and corporate finance as revenue generating businesses going forward. I mentioned on numerous occasions to prudently maintain a strong balance sheet and cash position has been key for Catella throughout this market downturn. But of course, following the sale of Cactus, we're now in a position with excess liquidity. Therefore, as announced this morning, we aim to reduce our outstanding interest-bearing debt through an offer to repurchase up to 600 million of the 1.3 billion bond debt. Also worth stating is that if we would reach the targeted buyback of volumes of the bond, we will still have relevant headroom to pursue new investments in accordance with our investment criteria, meeting the long-term return requirements and fueling the growth of AOM in investment management. And with that said, I'll hand back over to you, Daniel.

Okay, thank you, Michel. So before we conclude and open up for Q&A, I'd like to briefly summarize the quarter from our perspective. So we remain cautiously optimistic about the continued slow market recovery where we have had the worst behind us. Market fundamentals are supportive of this trend with the lower long term interest rates and a tightened credit margins, significantly improved financing conditions and an active bond market. With these factors as a foundation, it should lead to continued recovery of transaction volumes. Our main message from this quarter is that we continue to do the right things and that we are making progress on the key priorities that we have outlined in the beginning of the year. So we have continued to show growth in AUM in the second quarter. And the second quarter growth was fueled by new asset management mandates. And in some cases, this was enabled by own investments into projects, which then opened up for larger institutional capital. And this is precisely our view of how Catella puts its balance sheet to work in generating growth. Seller Cactus was concluded and the divestment generated substantial profits to Catella shareholders. It reduces risk and frees up significant liquidity, which will be used to decrease interest bearing debt, as Michelle mentioned, and support profitable growth. And even though the sale of Cactus was the largest contributor to this quarter's result, I would like also to emphasize that both investment management and corporate finance showed improved results following implemented cost and efficiency measures, making us a well-positioned to advance as the market now slowly returns. And finally, I extend a warm, warm welcome to Rikke as our new CEO. And I really look forward to working with you in my new role as Head of Corporate Finance Europe.

Thank you once again, Daniel. As stated earlier, I'm generally excited to join Catella. There's exciting times ahead and it's evident that Catella's business model coupled with the business area synergies create a winning formula. With our robust capital position, the entrepreneurial spirit within the group and the brightening market and related opportunities ahead, We are very well positioned to continue our pan-European growth.

I can only agree. And with that, I'd like to thank you all for listening. And we are now opening up for questions.

If you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad to enter the queue. If you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key six on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Patrick Bratellius from ABG. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Can you hear me?

Yes, loud and clear, Patrick.

Perfect. Thank you. My first question would go to Rikke, since you're on the call. So welcome on board. But as you have studied the company, I presume, on the sidelines before joining Catella, what has been your experience? initial thoughts of what you can do and what you can contribute in order to improve Catella and take them to the next steps. Can you please share some thoughts there?

Yes, you are absolutely right. Of course, I followed Catella for a while now during my garden leave. I've been, this is my official fifth day on the job, so you will have to excuse me that I'm not going to get too detailed at this point, but there is no doubt with my extensive knowledge and experience within the investment management market, you will find that I will have a very large focus on our principal investment and our investment management team. Daniel has agreed to take up the corporate finance team. He has extensive knowledge there. So together, I think we cover the business areas within Catella. in a very good way. But there's no doubt that my primary focus will be on the principal investments, how to have principal investments support the further growth in investment management.

Thank you. And if we continue then with the capital allocation, how do you view that? Because as you mentioned on the call here, following the sale of Cactus. The cash position is very strong now. You have now this bond buyback, but after deducting for that, you still have a very strong buffer. How do you view that the capital should be allocated the coming quarters and coming years in order to extract the most value for Catella?

Well, is the question for me again? Sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, okay, good. I just wanted to make sure. Michel was looking at me saying which one of them. There is no doubt that the capital we have on our balance sheet at the moment is going to be used for further growth of Catella pan-European wide. So that will be through both investments in new future funds in joint ventures and in other areas where we can strengthen the investment management and the corporate finance teams further growth across Europe. Now, as I said, this is my fifth day, so I am reviewing opportunities, but I think some opportunities will come during the next quarter and years. But if you will allow me to revert back in our next call, I hope that I can revert back with even further details on how we intend to invest some of the liquidity into further growth in the company.

That sounds very intriguing and good. The next question, I'm not sure, maybe it's for Daniel to answer. or for you, Ricke or Michelle, but you are now below your target in the principal investment segments and your target is almost doubling the level compared to where you're currently at. How long time can we expect before you reach that level? Is that an ambition to be reached within the coming three years or is that even a longer timeframe. How should shareholder think about this target?

I would say, Patrick, that we are in the range of the target. As you know, I mean, what we've had historically is to have investments of 1 to 1.5 billion. And as we show today, I mean, putting both our development investments and the fund investments together, we're at 1.1 billion today.

Okay, that's fair. I always saw it like 1.5 was perhaps the target, but yeah, that's true if it's on one to one and a half. Okay, then my last question is regarding the AUM. have a couple of drivers here that you have highlighted we have the inflows and the outflows and the revaluation if we zoom out a little bit can you talk a little bit how do you foresee the different drivers uh developing uh given the current macro environment the the coming years um if i can start maybe so what we've uh

said over a couple of quarters is that we expect more of the growth in near term to come from asset management mandates as there is you know, increased demand of repositioning assets, investing in new assets and, you know, to increase the value in the assets held by investors. And that is also what we see in this quarter and have seen over the last 12 months. Whereas then, you know, funds have been a bit more muted. And that's, you know, an effect of the market dynamics, which we've seen over the couple of years.

And if we reference to the slide on slide 10, is it a fair assumption to think that given interest rate has leveled out, maybe it can come down slightly more, but revaluation should be a thing of the past and we should see a demand driving inflows that should outweigh outflows in a larger extent than we have seen for the last one and a half years. Is that a fair assumption?

Yeah, and as I've said a couple of times, it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future. But, you know, as we say in there or as Daniel says in the report, and I mean, we are cautiously optimistic. Inflation seems to be under control. Long term interest rates, which is a very important driver in this industry, also has leveled out and revaluations seem to, you know, reached a level where, you know, the the bid-ask gap now has narrowed down to a point where transactions actually happen. Absolutely.

Thank you so much. That was all for me.

Thank you. The next question comes from Emil Johnson from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Good morning. Thanks for taking my questions. Firstly, I'd like to ask, are there any more sort of obvious things to do in terms of internal efficiency measures, or have you already sort of picked all the low-hanging fruits by now?

Let me put it this way. I think there is no company that cannot find something somewhere if they look a little further. So it's one of the things that Michelle, Daniel and I will be looking at is to see, is there ways of operating more efficiently? And then of course we will implement those. But again, I don't think you can find any company who can't find anything or who can't find something. And we will look for that, but we will look for it in a way that is slightly different probably. And that is we will look for efficiencies where it commercially really makes sense for us, where we can focus on the commercial mindset and take those efficiencies based on both commercial mindset efficiency of course and profitability but it's really key for us that everything we do from now on is underlining our commercial mindset so you might also see some new investments here and there in order to ensure that our um commercial mindset and our opportunities can be increased in the different areas but again i don't i've been through i've been working in a few companies by now and i think any company can find something. I think you would agree if we start looking.

All right. In the past few quarters, we've seen not huge, but fairly significant moves in the number of employees in the company. Do you see anything in particular that we should expect there or Do you think the trajectory has sort of leveled out by now?

I don't think we can comment more on what Ricky said, but as you know, as you followed up for quite some time, as the market plummeted, we needed to do changes from a cost and efficiency perspective. And those we have done, and you see those effects coming through in the P&L. now as well and as Ricky said every company needs to and has to review its efficiency and structure on an ongoing basis all right and do you think you could talk a bit more about what you see driving net inflows in a

short to medium term future. You talked a bit about launching new products. Could you say anything about what kinds of products we could expect to see and what other levers there are for you to pull to drive inflows?

As Michelle stated, inflows, I mean, products as such, when you discuss, when you say products, I guess you mean funds. And we are working on some new products, but it's a bit too soon to go out and talk about that. We will revert to you when we have more news on that. definitely our inflows is going to be driven by by two main sources and that's going to be the corporate finance team picking up more mandates both on buy and sell side and it's going to be more asset management mandates across europe we're definitely going to be focusing focusing on transactions in the corporate finance team, so advisory services, and then our asset management services across Europe.

Could you perhaps elaborate a little bit on how you see the corporate finance team driving inflows into investment management?

driving inflows into investment management? Sorry, you are very low here where we're sitting, so I just want to make sure you said corporate finance team assist in driving inflows to the asset management team, investment management team?

Yeah, I was asking on what's going to drive capital inflows into investment management, whether that's funds or asset management. And you said that one of the key drivers will be the corporate finance team. I was just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on that.

Well, that's not what I said. I said we have two business areas, one that is corporate finance, another one that is investment management. And separately, they both can drive growth and inflow to Catella, the corporate finance team with increased transactional services, and the investment management team with further asset management mandates. whether there will be a situation where our corporate finance team locally will assist an international buyer acquiring in the country and we end up with the asset management team asset management mandate is a possibility But it is key, I think, for our clients in the corporate finance team that they are free to choose. So our investment management team will bid on the asset management mandate on the equal terms as anybody else.

All right. I would like to just finish with a question for you, Erika. I look forward to hearing more from you in the future once you've had more time to look into the business with more details. Appreciate that. Having been at Patricia for a long time, which is fairly similar to Catella. Do you see anything obvious that they did in a good way that you could perhaps bring to Catella? Or do you have any other experiences from working there that you think is going to be useful?

I've worked at a number of investment and asset management firms or in the real estate industry for more than 20 years now. And of course you are inspired by all the firms you work in. What I would prefer and what I do intend to do is first get to know Catella and the Catella way, and then sit down and say, okay, so how could we maybe increase our USP? I don't believe in copying other firms. I believe in creating our own USP based on our own culture and values. That said, I don't think there is anybody who can't say they don't get inspired. But let me first, as you graciously gave me the time to do, get to know Catella and its ways, and then we'll take it from there. I hope that's fair with you.

All right, that's fair enough. That was all the questions for me, but thanks for taking my questions.

Thank you, Yamine.

Thank you. The next question comes from Martin Wallstrom from Redeye. Please go ahead.

Yes, hello. Thank you for taking my question and welcome to Rikke. Thank you. I only have one question that hasn't been answered already and that is directed to you, Daniel. You're now transferring to the newly created position here as head of corporate finance in Europe. And I was kind of, it would be interesting to hear a little bit more kind of the reason behind creating the position and also what initiatives you want to carry out there to drive growth going forward.

Yeah, thank you. And I'm always almost as new in my role as Rikke a couple of days in. But of course, as we mentioned in the presentation, we have been working quite hard now to really focus and make finance more efficient over the years. And I think we are now extremely well positioned for the years coming because we see market recovery. And as I also stated, I think we are very strong locally, which we should continue to be, but also I think there is a further potential for us to be better coordinated throughout the whole European market, especially in the clusters, the Nordic cluster, but also the continental Europe. I think we will try to take the best of two worlds. I mean, being a local strong player, but also make sure that we can serve the large international clients in a more coordinated way. So we will try to use our market position and the strong reputation we have by doing that. And then we'll also try to put a better organizational structure in place that will make it more simple and clear exactly so that everybody are incentivized in the same way. So a lot of nitty gritty work, but also some strategic work that will need to take place to come in half year.

If I may interact here, one of the things you all asked me what I saw, and one of the things that I saw Catella needed was a strong person leading the team forward in corporate finance. We have great, strong entrepreneurial local teams, but we also see that more and more of these transactions are cross-border, and we needed somebody to head the team to focus on the cross-border relationships and collaboration for both the benefit of the employees, but definitely also for the clients that the corporate finance team served. service sorry and with daniel's vast experience in corporate finance i think it was a perfect fit for daniel to basically become a a ceo of the um of the corporate finance team sounds like a good initiative and just to follow up on that uh if i may um how has this been kind of coordinated previously after being kind of very strong local focus and

That's a big... some form of similar role in coordinating things across countries, or is that being managed?

It has been more steered locally, but of course somewhat controlled and also coordinated from the HQ and the CEO. But we'll put much more push on this, as Ricky says, now with me in my new role. So that is a clear step forward in really to make sure that we really unleash the full potential of our business area.

Sounds good. I'm looking forward to follow that. Yeah, me too. Thank you.

As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad. There are no more questions at this time, so I hand the conference back to the speakers for any closing comments.

all right thank you everybody for listening and as i mentioned earlier the report and and the material are uploaded on our website and we are looking forward to speak with you soon again thank you for listening and bye