Crunchfish AB (publ)

Hi everyone and welcome to Västerhamnen corporate finance. Today we will talk about Crunchfish. The company has just released its year-end report for 2024. I'm joined by the CEO Joakim Salmusson. Very much welcome Joakim. Thank

you, Martin. Thank you.

I will talk about the report, of course, prospects and ambitions for the company. And it's also based on your questions. So I encourage all viewers to send in questions using the Q&A function at the bottom of the frame. So, and we'll address them during the session, of course. But let's start with the report. The headline is focusing on business. Why have you chosen this headline?

Well, I think it is almost... I don't know how many have contacted me and said, we need business. We need business. We need business. And I don't know. We know we need business. And that is what we need to create. We have a fantastic product. We have fantastic technology. But what's really going to turn things around is that we actually can capitalize, that we can commercialize our technology. So it is focused on business. That is... We fully understand that. And that's what we need to do. We've developed over the years a lot of technology. Some hasn't been successful. And now we have focused down sort of our business to, let's bet on this, offline payments that we filed for a patent in 2020 and worked with since then. A lot of focus has been on India. As we understood that India has an opportunity in this area. But we've said we understand. We need to get business now. We can't just go on with great technology that hopefully we give something. Now we have to deliver as well. Certainly, I think our whole financial situation demands that. Time is actually against us right now. We just need to perform. So the focus is in the company for business. And we know that. So that's why I think we put it as a high headline that we understand.

Yeah. And we'll come back to the patent discussion a bit later. Sure. But let's start from your most imminent focus area, which is India. Could you describe the environment? I mean, you're in talks with the Reserve Bank of India and National Payment Corporation of India and several banks. And yeah.

Yeah. What's going on? What's

going on in the market? Yeah.

I think from a reporting perspective, I'm actually very glad to say that India is... We've developed our product for demands in India. And we've been focusing on India since day one of offline payments. And the development that has happened during the last months here has been in India. And that is, if we're going to look at 2025, what can turn this around? India is the key market for sure. So we're very happy that this is where things has actually happened a lot.

And the RBI is pushing for implementing the digital currency.

Yes. That is one thing that is going on. I think RBI took already in 2023 decision that they will pilot their digital rupee. And it was a product that already from the start, they said it's going to work also offline. But they built a system which... And we're going to... I think let's come back on that after I've described all the roles, as you first asked. They built a system which is that they digitize the banknote. That you have physical banknotes. Bills basically. 100 rupee bills and 1000 rupee bills and so on. And they just made an exact copy of that, but digitally. They actually... And this is news. They're actually going away from that. It's not going to be based on that. And this shift in the market is actually very good for us. Because now they're going to develop a new system which is much more closer to how we look upon offline payments. It suits better.

So this is what you're writing in your report. This is the value-based tokens.

Yeah. Instead of having only fixed values, they have a digital token for 1000 and 400. Then a token could be on any value. And why is that important? Well, if you think of it in a payment situation. It's going to be hard in a payment situation. Because I need to have exactly the right amount of tokens. Or alternatively, you would have some tokens that you can turn back as a change. Giving me back something. But that will very seldom match exactly the amounts. In online, you can sort of do it. Because then you can online do some of the changes. But if you're offline and you're stuck with what you have, it's actually hard to get something actually working. And they've realized this. And that's why they're doing a major change. But back to the roles. So RBI is pushing along for offline payments. They've been doing that since they came up with their idea that less pilot for digital rupee. And it's similar to what other central banks are doing in the world. That offline becomes sort of a priority. We've seen it in Europe. And we've seen it. We were involved with some other central banks in the world as well. Offline is driven in a way by the central banks. Their cash is offline. The physical cash. Digital cash needs to be that as well. So an RBI is pushing this along. Then there is this company, NPCI, or this organization, I'd say, NPCI. This is the National Payment Corporation of India. They have been started some years back.

And they are running the payment system.

They run this payment system. And in a way, it's sort of a bank corporation. It's the National Payment Corporation of India. But they've also been initiated by RBI. So it's almost like a government organization, although they have private players there as well from the banking sector. And they operate the systems. And they have their enormously successful payment system called UPI. It's now up to, I think, 17 billion transactions annually. No, sorry, monthly. Monthly, I should say. Monthly. They do enormous amount of online transactions. And they've launched something called UPI LiteX, which is a very similar system to ours, but it's still not out in the market. RBI has not let them go beyond. They have it in their own app. NPCI has their own app in the market, which is not spread very widely in the market. That is the only place they have it. So offline is not really there with it. But they still have it, but it's not that there. But NPCI is the company behind a lot of the payment products in India, and especially the UPI. But NPCI is also involved with RBI because they are the one that writes the specs for how now both the previous system and now the value-based system. So they're also integrally involved in how the digital rupee is going to be organized. So NPCI is also a very important player for what RBI is doing in this area. And then we come to the banks. And the banks, they are the ones that are behind it. If we talk to digital rupee, there are 15 pilot banks that RBI is working with to sort of launch this. And they've recently also opened up that also sort of other players than just banks can actually also do digital rupee transactions. That's also a recent sort of announcement that has happened. So not only the banks' payment instruments can do it, but also third-party application providers, they will also do it. So this whole mix is where we are acting. And we have dialogues with RBI. Physically, I met them in January. I was there for the Harbinger third year final of the hackathon. And I met with NPCI and I met with sort of banks while I was there as well. So we are talking to all of them here, including the Wallace also. And in this mix, we are positioning our offline technology as something of value. And there is still, I would say, keen interest. There's been a lot of discussions back and forth and a lot of proposals back and forth. And I'm happy to go into more of the details there. But we haven't lost the game in India. There has been rather shifts in the market. And I think the most important shift is that RBI is introducing now value-based tokens, which for an offline sense is sort of working like our system is sort of working. That you sign out an exact amount that I pay you with, Martin. I'm not just having something almost like a voucher that I can give you. And we would have a problem with that. Yeah, we would have a big problem there. So now they have a system that actually I think is set up for proper offline payments. And we are, as RBI knows us, they have even approved our system back in 2023, they know we can do offline payments. And they are pushing in a way for how about working with sort of the country solution. So can

I ask about, do you know anything about the change to value-based token? Is it imminent or is it a plan for... Yes, it's

imminent. They're doing it now. RBI has, they have a deadline for all the pilot banks needs to be ready in Q1 with a shift into a new architecture. And that affects, it's not only offline, it affects online as well, because the whole system will change and the deadline is Q1. So everybody, all the banks are super busy right now doing this shift here really. But in the mix of that, it's also now, it opens up a much more opportunity to actually properly do offline payments. And this is where we come in.

Do they have a plan for the offline segment as well? Any

of the pilot banks, not all pilot banks have done on offline payments in the first sort of, we talked to one bank the other week and they were one of the first ones that launched already in 2023. But they since then had only done online payments. So for them, they would now first update it to value-based payments for online payments before they actually take on offline payments as well. But there are some banks, some of the leading banks actually, that have done offline payments. And for them, they need to update it as well for the offline part.

So there will obviously be a need to do the offline payment solution. What alternatives do they have apart from you? Do you have any competition?

Well, there are. I think one thing which was announced yesterday, I think that was just a month back, we were in the regulatory sandbox back in 2023 for our smartphone-based offline payment system. They've just announced that they're going to work with a company called Xto in India. They are very good at doing it on a smart card. So they're going to be now in the regulatory sandbox. And we haven't been focused on, say, the actual smart card. We focus on actually doing it on a mobile. But they are now in the regulatory sandbox for that. That is another way of implementing offline payments, that you actually can do it from a card as well. So they're going to try that, which is fine. And then obviously, there is MPCI,

what

they have done. And they've done one solution for offline for UPI, but it hasn't yet, because it's not secure enough. It hasn't been spread in the market.

And that is the UPI LiteX that you mentioned. Yeah,

that's UPI LiteX. So that is... And they can't just take UPI LiteX into what is happening, but that's another offline player, which is part of the ecosystem. But as that one hasn't been released yet because of issues, then we are talking to RBI and we're talking to MPCI that we, who have an approved solution already, why don't we build it on our technology, which could be the baseline for the market?

And in all this change, you've started collaboration with a subsidiary to the RBI.

Yeah, they reached out to us. This also was quite recent. They reached out to us after my visit in January for the Harbinger final. It's a subsidiary. They invest in technology and they look a little bit more long term. And the focus there, they want to talk about offline because they know that's our strength. But they also have a related area to offline and where are two payments really, which relates to offline as well. And they've said if we could help them of developing in that area as well. So we made a proposal for them as well. But again, it shows that RBI is... I think we're well seen with RBI. I think they like what we do. And they are for... If we go back to offline again, where the push is for offline in the market, the most focus is right now, let's do it for the digital rupee. And this is where RBI, in a way, sets the agenda and we are one of the players. One thing, it might be a good time to come up with that. I think, why does it take so long? Why is it difficult? Why don't we sell already? Well, I think it's linked to the fact that if you are a central bank, or MPCI for that matter, who deliver something for the entire country that the whole country should use, they are struggling with making themselves dependent on a private venture. Even an Indian private player, they wouldn't like that either, but that would be maybe easier for them to swallow, but they don't really like that either. But a foreign private company, it's highly risky for them to make themselves dependent on a foreign entity. Because what happens with this foreign entity? Will that foreign entity survive? But also, maybe it's bought up by more of a hostile organisation. So they are making sure that what we invest in, we need to have control over and we need to own it. That is one thing. And we are working with them to come up with a way of how can you actually get our technology so you control it, but we still have the chance to... We can't give away all rights to our things, but how are we going to manage that? This is one of the key discussions that we have. And it's similar for Europe. Europe was very clear in their tendering process for the digital euro. The European Central Bank said, we need to own this. We cannot ever put ourselves in a dependent situation on private players. So we are willing to pay, we are willing to own it, but then it's us to actually control it. And similar discussion we've had all along with NPCI since we started talking to them back in 2020, but also with... I think they all understand that. They need to be in control because otherwise they risk that their backbone of the payment system is actually... Potentially, you can be in a hostage situation that someone else come in and sort of puts...

So why not invest directly in Crunchwish?

Well, but they don't really... That would mean that it would buy us. That could be one alternative. That could be one alternative, but I think what we are... Rather, right now, the solution we're coming up with is that what they could invest in is the right to use our patent solution. All our know-how under patents, they can have the right to own that. And then the product could either be delivered by... Together with us, with NPCI to all the banks. And... Or it could be that the banks will be responsible for actually implementing their own solutions. But the fact that they can actually have the right to use our patent base and our know-how means that they can actually own that part. And then the product delivery in itself could come as a step two. And that could either be as with this... With our solution, there is the XO solution or it could be other solution. But this means that we can also then scale that solution in the future. But then there are the discussion with NPCI as well. Because NPCI is known to deliver... Components for this background solution. And this is where NPCI... It's the reason that this week, NPCI has come back to us and said, we want an updated proposal from you. We did a proposal back in November, which was our solution. So

the proposal is the one that you're describing in the report. And they want an updated proposal. Well, we've

had... We had already a proposal back in November, but that was our solution, which was our technology that we control. But as many people who are following us knows that we have developed our product. The product is developed within something called Viki, a virtual secure element that comes from Singapore. That part is very hard. We can't sell full rights to NPCI or anyone to use that because that's the property of Viki. So now the last... idea of NPCI is that, why don't we think of this way instead? That let's take that out of the equation and use your technology, but we figure out together the security arrangement around the technology. So right now, I think... And they've said, give us a new updated proposal,

taking

out the virtual secure element. That means that our product currently is based on that, but right now they want to have the specs and they want all the patterns and the know-how, but that's what they want to then instead pay for. And then we can co-create together with them something new, but in this sense, not based on it. But this means that they can control it, but they can also then deliver something with our help, but will be a new system. That was what we quoted on as late as this week. So it's been a moving target, but I think what I want everybody to understand is that I can understand, just like Anne can understand the European Central Bank, we need to own it. NPCI has the same thing. We can't distribute to everybody and then all of a sudden there is some hostage situation that we don't have the control technology and RBI thinks the same. But I think we've now come up with a way that they could still invest in us and make a deal with us. And then we co-create something together for the Indian market or alternatively, as RBI could do as well. Let's open, we have the specs, they have the patent right, and then the banks will then invest something which follows the specs, so they will buy the products.

So you're now in the process of considering how to respond to the updated request from...

We've already responded.

We've already

sent that proposal. Do you have an

idea for how long the project will be? Well,

we said in November that it will take three to six months to reach an agreement. I think we would have been there now if they had taken our original proposal. But I'm glad I said sort of three to six months because now I think we will go into a new round of discussions around this latest proposal. So that might take... But we're getting close, and we're talking about infrastructure for the entire Indian market. And what we would get money for is actually our know-how, our patent rights here. And then we will co-create something together then with... That would be for MPCI. That will work offline. But we... Again, it was sent earlier this week. So, but I think it's important... Things are moving all the time. We are responding, and I think we are getting closer. And this is the big breakthrough for us. So, yeah, I think we are on track of what we said. Three months was, in a way, if they had gone for the proposal we sent in November, we could have been there now. But now they've just shifted the goalpost. Let's take out, in a way, our security arrangement, and let's try to do that together instead.

Which could potentially be a bigger prospect for you. Well,

it's a new scenario, but we... Yeah. Yeah, that's what we are with it, really. And then there are the banks, who are the players that's going to implement this solution, and the wallets that's going to implement this solution. They are part of the pictures, and we're having these discussions with some of these leading banks in the market. And I think they understand that we know offline payments very well. But the question is, would it be them being fully responsible for the security here themselves, and then they need us very dearly? Or will they get something here from maybe MPCI, and hopefully something deliverable, which comes from us and MPCI, that MPCI owns, but we have been part of developing that.

You have a commercial agreement with HDFC Bank, First Bank.

No, IDFC. Sorry. IDFC. IDFC,

First Bank. And can you give us any updates? Are they awaiting this upgrade from REI?

Right now, they're also fully busy on doing this shift into value-based tokens. I think the product we have with them, it's sort of for what we call remote offline, that you use the telecom route to connect to the backend instead. That product still works. And we've had a meeting just a couple of weeks back with IDFC and telling them that with this shift that is happening, there is sort of really almost... As long as you do that shift yourself, there is sort of zero impact on this product. So this would also come along. But IDFC is very... We've talked about full offline as well, where I can pay you without any connectivity. And they are keen to... There's a bank that is very keen that we can showcase that in the market. And it might come to that as well. So it's good that they're behind us very much still.

And you also mentioned in the report, you're talking with wallets, digital wallets.

Yeah, that's a big section of the market as well, that there are wallets in the market. It's one particular right now that we've had a dialogue for a long time. It's with a petrol company who have... Because if you're out in the countryside, poor coverage, it's a closed-loop sort of solution that you put in money into a wallet of that petrol company, and then you can use that for filling up your gas. And they like that to be work offline. That's one of those... It's not, in a way... It's just one opportunity. What I talk about with MPCI and RBI, this is for the whole shebang in India. This is huge compared to some of those minor deals here and there. This is national infrastructure. This is why they need to own it and can't just become too... They can't get dependent on us.

But such a deal with a digital wallet could also validate your case in the market? Yes,

but it would be one deal instead of... The other one would validate us for the world, in a way. That would be a major step forward. I'm not... We want business, if we can get, and it would be a nice validation, but it would be one player out of many. Whereas a major central bank like India, and also done it together with MPCI, who is known for having now the most successful real-time payment system in the world, I think that would be the major breakthrough, if we get that one.

Would you like to add anything about the developments in India before we move on outside of India?

Well, no, no, no. I think the... My basic... India is key to us. I end my CEO word, is that this is where we can have... Where really we can get a major... Major sort of deal, because it's for the whole country, if we do it. I think the good news is that a lot of good things have happened in India. We... Yeah, our key market, which is key to our success, this is where we have taken a lot of good steps forward. And I'm... That's what excites us. That's what keeps our spirit high in the organization still.

So outside of India. Out there.

India is inside India, and then out there, outside of India. Let's go to out there.

Could you update us on the CBDC projects in out there?

Well, the biggest offline project in the world, by far, is Europe. The Central Bank, European Central Bank has put... They budgeted for over 200 million euros for the offline part. And they've said it can even go up to 600. And it's sort of a tendering process. We have signed very strict confidentiality agreements. So we can't actually comment on sort of where we are with that one. What they've opened up for as well is that they want for something called programmable money. They want innovative ideas. We have filed and... Because that's something we filed a patent for back earlier last year. And so we have said, we know how to make programmable payments work for offline payments as well. And we hope to get sort of some response out of that. That goes, you know, besides. Because programmable payments is not just for offline. It's actually for... It's just a feature of the digital euro system that they're interested in. So that's another one we're part of. But the major development there for us is that our poor patent that we filed in January 2020, that is already granted in the US. We got that in July. But we have also got in December a notice of allowance, which is sort of the... They're basically saying, the European Patent Office have said, we are now ready to grant you the patent. And they give us, OK, this is what we want to grant you for. Are you OK with that? And we are in that process now. You know, we got the notice of allowance and then there is sort of some formalities that's going to happen before we actually get the grant. But this is interesting in Europe because it's sort of... Our original idea, which is very fundamental to offline payments, is actually now being approved, not just in the US as we have it, also in Europe, it's pending in India as well. And what we came up with in 2020, and I actually didn't... For that reason, I decided let's explain a little bit more in this report. What is this patent? How can you understand it? And there are a couple of pages on that. But Europe is important, the fact that we're actually getting this one granted here. And then in Europe, there is one central bank who are right now using our technology for a pilot. This is an unpaid pilot right now, but it's sort of an Eastern European country doing it. And they are sort of now... They're going to soon launch and do a pilot. And the pilot is going to be... I don't know if it's ending in Q1 or if it's just Q2, but they're going for it. It's

ongoing. And

then we have another... It also is the European that is highly interested in our technology that we have discussions with for a pilot as well. So we have other central banks interested in our offline technology for CBDC. And then there is the big one. It's obviously the European Central Bank, which is a huge project as well. But unfortunately, I'm not allowed to say anything. No.

But will the patent loans help you in the tender, do you think?

It depends on how you design things. But I think there's a lot of aspects of offline payments. And it's valid. Europe has talked a lot about that they want hardware-based security for offline. But this patent protects both for hardware and software. It's not just software-based solutions. So it will be there. But it's too early to say anything, really. But it's something which applies to both software-based security as well as hardware-based security.

So things are happening in Europe, other parts of the world?

Africa. We have our friends at SASEXPONS. They actually told us that they had one or even two deals that were closed before the end of the year. None of that has happened. But there is one of these deals. It's up for board approval in February. So that's very soon. So that's sort of an African country there where we're hoping to actually then. That's just like this petrol in India. It's sort of a wallet and they want offline because that's important in their country. And I hope for us and for SASEXPONS and also for this country that they take this on. It's a dominant wallet with having, I think, 60, 70 percent of the population using it. So it's one of these deals as well, which, as you said, would validate our technology. It's not as big as India by far, but it's still a great thing if we would get that just to get business get going.

And we spoke a bit about patents in Europe. And what's the situation in India?

All our patent applications are pending in India. Nothing has been granted there yet. This one we filed originally in 2020. We got it first in the US. We got it in Europe. But India is, you know, we are in that examination process. So this is the one we hope we will get. And that will actually protect us for offline payments similar to UPI Lite X. So it will be hard, I think, to do UPI Lite X if we get this patent sort of approved. But also, I think we would exploit this patent for how we want to do offline payments for the digital rupee as well. But then this is not our only patent. This one in 2020. We have, I think, it's more than 10. And they are also in various stages. But the one we filed already in 2020 is now the one which is granted in the US, granted soon in Europe and pending in China and India as well. But we don't have got the patent yet, but it's in

process. We received a question regarding the NPTI. And the thing that they don't like, Viki, is it for the same reason as Crunchfish, a small player outside of India? I think they appreciate

what Viki has done. The virtual secure element is a great thing. I think MPCI also recognize that. I think we've talked about doing a proof of concepts. This has been for doing a proof of concept of the virtual secure element. That's what they've been asking for. And because they wanted to see, understand it more in operation. But the problem is not that they don't like us or like Viki. The problem is with control. Because the Viki system, the virtual secure element that they deliver, VUS, virtual operating system, that is a security environment that Viki has sold to hundreds of countries, companies in the world, banks and many, many other places. And Viki cannot provide MPCI with full control and source code. They basically said, we can't, because then they would jeopardize the security for their other customers. So we have explained to MPCI, and we did that in November, and we explained it again when we had a meeting in December with MPCI, that the US virtual secure element from Viki, that's an operating environment, which is secure, you cannot get access to full control of that. But this is why they now turn to us and said, for our solution, which we need control over, let's do it this way. We want to work with you, give us a quote, but take out VUS out of the equation. So we could actually together, because MPCI have a lot of payment products. So they know a lot about security, but they don't have a virtual secure element, but they know about security still. But they are figuring out, can we actually do something together on the security side, which we have them control over, but using your know-how and technology for offline payments. This is where it now stands.

OK. We also have a question regarding the bidding and the talks with MPCI. How many players are talking with MPCI in competition with you? Do you know?

No, well, I don't think there are too many, not that many. There are, I think we just saw this X though. We met them a few times at these Harbinger events, where we see a little bit the Indian...

And that's the card? Yeah,

they are strong on the standalone cards, that you can have a store value on the card. So they talk to, I think, RBI and they talk to MPCI. There are some other solutions for various implementations here. But I think our strength is that we were very early, we have some key patents, and they know for the form factor of a smartphone, which MPCI focus on, and we focus on as well, I think we have the most know-how in that area. And that's why I think this is why we are in this discussion still. Because I don't think, ideally they would have loved to work with an Indian player, but they are, as I said, as late as this week, they've asked us, let's do it this way now, then. We want to control, let's do with your technology for the Indian market, but let's take out the equation, because you can't sell that to us. And with full rights. And we can't. And we discussed that with Viki as well, and they've said we simply can't give that right. And that's just because then it would jeopardize their whole business, really. Then they would have to buy that also. But I think they are not asking us to buy us, they're not asking to buy Viki. So that's how it is.

And regarding the ECB tender, could you tell anything about the competition there? Or is it just...

I think it was official that for offline there were five, maximum five, that's all they said. And you're one

of them together? We're one

of the five. One of the five. And yeah, and that's all they've been officially released. Nothing else, really.

We have a question regarding, if you are in discussion with Georgia and Central Bank, regarding CBTC, is that something you can answer?

Well, that's very... Yeah, well, that could very... We are in discussions with Eastern European, and Georgia could be one of them. But I'm not sure if I, under the NDA agreements, could actually sort of say anything. But that could be one of them,

yeah. Yeah. And I encourage everyone who's watching to send in questions. You are able to answer them as best you can. In the meantime, of all the prospects you're involved in right now, which is the most likely to materialize during the first half of 2025, say?

Do you think? Well, as I said, one small deal here that Starsext Bonds said would close already in Q4, we hope to get that one. And that we're waiting for an approval that this project will go ahead. And then we'll have to be contract signing and so on for it. So that could be one. But the main focus, which takes up most of my time, and the organization's time, is to get those breakthrough deals in India. And we have proposed for RBI directly, we have worked with their subsidiary for one proposal, and we have just proposed an updated, as I have described a few times here in this call, with NPCI. I really hope that they take us on, because that would be such a major breakthrough for the company. I don't think they are just stringing us along. I think, why would they? Why? They could have said no many, many times in the past. But I do think they are sincere, and they are looking for a way to get something going, which fulfills their requirements that we need to have control. But we are interested in your technology. And I hope that with NPCI now, we may have reached that idea. And we have proposed similar ideas to RBI, where you could have control. We work with you to come up with a great way of doing offline payments for the dealer or rupee, and then let the banks implement whatever they want. They can use our solution, and also maybe competing solutions. As you said, there are others. But we let you own the spec and own the patents to actually have the right to use the patents. That is what you can buy from us. And then we can open a market that anyone can then do offline payments. And we will be one of the contenders. Because the good thing for us then, that would scale very well, because we would first get money for the system level specification and patent rights. And then it would be up to any of the payment providers, the banks or the payment systems, to actually then acquire whatever technology they want to get this work. And we would be one of them there also. But if we talk about Q1, Q2 here, as you said, it is to get that big deal. Let's just set that, because that would turn things upside down. And we are in the... This is the leading payment country in the world. They do half of the world's swish payments. It's done in India. It's just an enormous market for payments. And we are still seen as a credible player here for offline, which is just enormous, if you think of it.

And you want to have things in place in India before you build a proper business case in Europe based on your patent?

Well, we are. We're not just... We're putting most of our bets, most of our, basically, efforts into India, because we need to break through that now. We've been... You know, we've been working there for so many years without actually having this breakthrough that we hoped for. And we can't run around everywhere in the world, because it will take time everywhere else also. But if we can get India, that's the focus. Then we will have a lot of credibility and we will sustain ourselves with money. And we can even have a scalable business here, where the banks and payment systems are paying for the product. So we need to get India. But we are not... Yeah, we have our ears to the ground and we are with partners. We're working in some other opportunities as well. But India is where we are directly involved and in direct contact with the key players.

We received a question regarding a company called Mojaluke. Are you coming up with that?

Yeah, we come across them. They have a system which is a platform which can do... Almost like UPI, it's sort of a... It's an open system where they can do push payment through their Mojaluke platform. Just like in UPI, a lot of payment applications, many apps can do push payments through UPI. Mojaluke is sort of a system where they can put that in place and then you can do push payment through it. We have a dialogue with Mojaluke about... We could help you facilitate offline payments on the Mojaluke platform, just like we can facilitate offline payments on the UPI platform.

Is this in India as well? No, this

is more in Africa. Their focus has been on a lot of third world, sort of emerging markets in Africa. This is their main market for Mojaluke. It's not in India. Yeah, they're not... In India, MPCI with UPI dominates. But Mojaluke is sort of... In many third world countries, in emerging markets in Africa, this is where they put up their platform to help get something of a digital push payment system going.

Yeah, so complementing their platform.

Yeah.

I think we've addressed the questions sent in. To wrap things up, just... What's your feeling for 2025?

Well, we are, believe it or not, but we're still optimistic. We are talking to the, I think, the finest payment markets in the world, India. And we are talking to the right players, Central Bank, MPCI and many of their sort of leading banks and payment providers as well. If we can get it through, then what we've all been waiting for and dream for, it's going to be a new situation for us. And I think we've come up with this way of actually making ourselves delivering something where they can be in control, because this is where the patents come in, because we can give them the freedom to operate against with these patents. And all our good know-how, we can put that all into the specs of how it should be done. But then the product itself, the implementation, is another matter that could go via MPCI and or also that the payment banks will sort of have to source in whatever product they want, then we can get that as well. I have a good feeling about this. And it's been a lot of good development during the last months in our direction. I think the shift in India for... Because offline right now is driven by the Central Bank, particularly for the digital rupee. And the fact that they went for now this value-based tokens instead of just having fixed banks' notes and try to do that offline, which was a bad idea. Now they have a much better chance to actually implement something. And it goes very well with how we have designed our system. So I have a good feeling about that. But nothing is sort of done until we've signed a deal. But we are certainly moving forward with it. And I hope we will get that. So my feeling is that we will get that breakthrough. That's what we have to hope for. And we're working very hard to get talking to all. So I have a good feeling for 2025. But I wish we could have had this already in 2024, because then we wouldn't have gone through this painful rice issue. But I hope we can turn it around by actually getting into the ecosystem of the leading payments market in the world, India. And that would change the new future for us.

Thank you very much, Joakim. So focus on business.

Focus on business. And India is where the big business is, really. What did I say? Three or four years. Big deals are coming. I hope we can deliver that in India. Even if I don't want to take those words in my mouth, because I've eaten enough over three years.

Okay. We'll see. Well, thank you Joakim again. Thank you, everyone who's watching.