Clavister Holding AB (publ.)

So, good morning, everyone. Welcome to our Clavister Q1 interim report presentation. My name is Kate Linwood and I am going to be your host for today's session. And with me today is John Westbrook, our CEO, and David Nordstrom, our CFO. So we will start today's presentation with the Q1 report by John and David. And after that, we will have a Q&A session. So please submit your questions at any time in the Q&A box during the presentation. And then at the end, we will answer all your questions. So and with that, I would like to hand over to you, John.

Thank you very much, Kate. And again, welcome everyone to Closer's Q1 report. Starting with a summary of the quarter and the key metrics that we bring to this quarter is starting with our net sales, 44 million. This is, in fact, our highest Q1 sales number ever and our second highest net sales ever as well. This contributed with a 21% sales growth. So I'm really happy to see that we can actually now celebrate 10 consecutive quarters of sales growth and two quarters of growth with more than 20%. So that's great. We're super happy on that. Also, our EBITDA margins continue to improve. So this quarter we arrived at 18% of adjusted EBITDA margins. So we're touching on the famous rule of 40 with a combined 21% growth and 18% EBITDA margin. If we would characterize this quarter with one single word, I would use the word stability. So in essence, it is a stable business. All of our four businesses with next-gen firewalling, identity and access management, telecom and defense, they are all stable and developing in a good direction. And the outlook in our perception is good for all the four businesses. One of the growth drivers in the quarter was the serious deliveries from the defense contracts that we have entered into. And I'll get back to that a bit later as well. If we look at the full year, we maintain a positive view. We do expect our net sales growth to be able to continue on this growth trajectory and to be able to settle in above 20%. That's our clear expectation and what we see from the trend we're into right now. With regards to expenses here again, I would use stability to characterize our OPEX. It is an OPEX under control. It's actually a slight, even a slight decrease of OPEX. If we zoom out and look at the full year, we don't see any major deviations to our OPEX trend at all. So we expect the full year OPEX to be on par with what we've seen from from last year as well. In terms of our cash flow, quite a significant improvement of the underlying cash flow. However, if we look isolated in the quarter, looking into working capital effects as well, we have some lingering effects coming from the fourth quarter. And this is the time of the season where we also build up a fairly larger stock for shipments and for deliveries during the year. And with the prepayments for those, we have somewhat a negative impact on the cash flow in the quarter. That's temporary, however. If we again zoom out in to the full year, we do expect our cash flows to increase substantially compared to last year. And last but not least, in the quarter, we finalized our rights issue that led to quite a substantial improvement of our cash position. So we raised after complete of the transaction costs, we raised one hundred and forty two million SEC. Moving to David, if you could please give us some more details on the numbers.

Yes, thank you, Jan. And for those of you who have been with us for some time, you will see that this is a big change of format. So I hope you will enjoy this and please share any feedback you have with us. So if we look at order intake, this is the lumpiest of our metrics. You will see that in quarter by quarter figures. And if we look at Q1 compared to Q1 last year, we see a 10% growth. That is delivered primarily by, as John said, by stability in our business, predominantly within the identity and access management business and next generation firewalls. Important here when you look at order intake is to look at the last 12 month trend where you see that we have clearly increased that to a high degree due to a very large defense contract one in Q4 that supports this. But with the performance in Q1, we are increasing the trend line with the improvements compared to Q1 a year ago. But also important to carry with you is our order backlog, which has increased compared with Q1 last year from 73 million to 227, which is a very good foundation to generate future net sales growth. So if we look at net sales, Here we can see when we compare to order intake that the lumpiness decreases. It's much more underlying stability in our net sales as that comes from a large volume of many recurring contracts, meaning that net sales for us is more stabilized. We see a 21% growth compared to Q1 last year, not generated by any single deal, single contract within the quarter, but rather underlying growth and underlying improved levels of the contract base. Here again, I think it's important to look in the upper part of the picture on the on the trend line on the last 12 months trend line. We see a continued increase. And as you said, this is our 10th consecutive quarter with net sales growth. And we see that the trend line is increasing as we progress in time, meaning that our our our growth performance are increasing, which is, of course, something we're very glad to see. And then moving on to ARR, you see that the trend of stabilization also increases. Here we zoom in on the annual recurring revenue in the software portfolio. We have been able to progress in line with the strategy we set out in 2021 to move Clavister from perpetual licenses to a SaaS-like business model that sits with recurring revenues. And we've been able to grow that continuously. And just to share some light on this, I think this growth comes from three areas. In the bottom, you have an increased number of recurring revenue contracts. So we are expanding our contract base. That's, of course, very important to generate more ARR. The second part is when we did this change strategy three years ago, one important part of that was to shorten our contract base. So we have a shift that is meaning that we are moving from predominantly focusing winning three to five year contracts to zooming in to be better to generate 12 month and monthly contracts. And that means that over time we have a better profitability in our contract mix because shorter contracts have better price points than longer contracts. And from a discounting perspective, we will also shift more power away from the customer to Clavister. If there's a shorter contract, it is harder to negotiate for discounts, meaning that our price levels are are better in shorter contracts. And the third part here is we have raised prices when we went into this year. So we have a better price mix with us supporting more ARR growth. And as the contract base is shorter, it more quickly can absorb price increases. So these three factors, I would say, explains the ARR growth. So we move forward. And we can look then at our gross margin. We grew net sales with 21 percent and we're growing our gross profit with 17. So we are not capturing the full net sales growth in our gross profit. And the reason for that is what was said earlier by John, that one important growth driver for us in the quarter is that we're scaling up. the deliveries within defense to BAE Systems. There we have a little bit of a less favorable gross margin profile than we have in our other parts of the business. So that has a somewhat, it is good for driving net sales, but it has a certain impact on gross profit as it is a bit lower within this part of the business. But I think if we also compare Q1 to Q1, we go from 83% Q1 last year to 80% in gross margin this year. But I think it's also important to compare with Q4 when we had similar growth levels of a little bit about 20%. There we had 77% of gross profit. if you've been with us for some time, you know that we try to communicate that in periods with higher growth, we have an impact on our gross profit. And then why? Well, the answer to that is When we sell and start more contracts, we have a more negative gross profit profile day one since we ship more hardware. Day two and onwards, there is no hardware element, only the software element, which has been very good gross margin. So when we grow, there is an impact on our gross profit. So compared to Q4, we have improved the gross margin quite significantly, even though we have more defense sales in the sales mix. And this is explained by two factors. We have been able to build a higher ARR level. meaning that there is more software in the sales mix with better margin support. And the second part is ongoing work with ensuring that we improve our gross margin within our next generation firewall sales, which we've also been successful in doing. So these factors combined explain that we can have improved gross margins, even though we have better growth. I think that is important for us to communicate. Then on OPEX side, we are, even though that we are delivering 21% net sales growth in the quarter, we are able to decrease our OPEX with 2%. So we are utilizing our resources more efficiently and being able to scale growth with the cost base we're already having. So that's something we're proud of. If we look at this from the sustainability perspective, we see that we are taking Clavister step by step to a position where we're able to fund our business with the profits that we are generating. So if you compare gross profit to the... Part of the picture on 36 million and then OPEX. And bear in mind here that OPEX includes capitalized R&D. So our full operational costs for driving the clavister business, that sits at 39. So we're not fully there yet where we see that we are on a stabilized level, having gross profits that's able to carry the clavister business. But we're clearly step by step getting there. So that's very important. And in looking at the upper part of the picture on the trend line, we see that thanks to the cost optimization program we ran in end of 2021 and during 2022 and onwards, we have pushed our OPEX level from around 180 million down to 150. We're stabilizing around that level. We don't expect OPEX to drop further. So the scalability here from pushing OPEX down as a percentage of net sales will not in the future come from driving OPEX downwards, rather maintaining OPEX while we continue to grow net sales. But that means that we will scale the business continuously better and make Clavisier more robust and sustainable here. So we're heading in the right direction. And finally, as we said, with improvements in net sales, we're protecting our gross margin and we're pushing OPEX down, meaning that we have a good leverage in our EBITDA levels up. a little bit more than 300% compared to Q1 last year. Our seventh now consecutive quarter with EBITDA growth or a positive EBITDA and where EBITDA trend-wise is growing quite clearly. If we compare a year ago, adjusted EBITDA on the last 12 months perspective was 1 million. Now it sits with 27%. it's not, as we've said before, it's not the end goal, but rather seen as steps on a journey where we continue to grow and push our EBITDA levels upward. But glad to see that our increased sales are translating into clearly improved EBITDA. So I stop there and hand over to you, John. Thank you very much, David.

I think those graphs give a very good illustration of how we're trending at the moment. If we then give some more insight into the business, we have our base business, our next gen firewall and identity and access management business. Again, the key word here is stability. So stability and growth coming from both both of those businesses and given that both are or are characterized by. And you'll recurring contracts and software subscription license models. They both obviously contribute to the ARR growth that David showed in the previous picture. Out of our geographical regions, the highest growth came from our Nordic sales and our German speaking region. Maybe to no surprise, as this is where we have consolidated most of our sales resources. So to no surprise, but good to see that our focus efforts actually bear fruit in those regions. What we're also doing as a very intense activity this year is looking at our offering, both in the IAM business and in the NextGen Firewall business. realizing that Clavister sits on a fantastic gold mine in terms of a very extensive technology platform. We have an expertise that is, I wouldn't say unique, but closely unique, especially in Sweden. We believe that we can capitalize and monetize even more on this combination of technology and expertise. So what we are working on currently is an improved solution on product packaging. We're looking at improving our market communication with clearer website, clearer product material and so forth. And with this, we strongly believe that we will be able to accelerate our sales a bit more, doing so towards our focus customer groups, essentially customers that with mission critical applications, as you know. So with that, I believe that we will see a number of exciting product and solution launches during this year that would help us to monetize even better on the technology platform that we that we possess. If we then move to the telecom market, still there is quite an uncertainty from a macro perspective in the market. If we look at our business in the quarter, somewhat of a weaker quarter from a revenue perspective, still stability in in our operations, stability in the the the pipeline that we maintain. But from a revenue perspective, a slight decline. It's perhaps to no surprise either, given the very much uncertainty on the market. We had hoped for a faster recovery, but we'll see when that comes. What we do, however, see is that the interest that we face in our solutions are more tangible, higher, more greater interest today compared to a few periods back. And we do see signs of operating that the operators start to invest again. The intention is there. There's still challenges on the macro perspective, but clearly signs to start investing. From that point of view, we still believe that our telecom business will be able to contribute to growth. Clearly, this isn't the growth machine yet that we expect or hope, but clearly it should be able to contribute to growth. All the science points to that. In defense... One of the key things from this quarter was the serious deliveries that we have entered into now that provide a lot of revenue and growth support for the quarter. It's worth mentioning, however, that the major contract that we announced in Q4, end of Q4, will be Systems Englands at 170 million SEK. None of that is yet reflected in our current revenues, so that's still to come. uh um and on that note we are in the midst of product development work and testing for that specific project and the deliveries for that project is planned for the second half of this year so you would see in end of q3 q4 that will start picking up uh some revenues coming from that project then serious deliveries is spread out over a four-year period starting mainly from 2025. Besides those contracts, we are continuing with our pipeline, our prospects as well. So we're working hard to secure additional defense contracts. There are ongoing negotiations and as well, technology relations. So obviously, I assume. Understood from following Clouster for a while, defense business is a long tail business from the initial lead to PUCs, to tech evaluations, to negotiations. We're looking at a multi-year process, obviously. So it's important for us to have several of these type of deals in the pipeline at various stages all the time so that we can feed the pipeline and feed the business with contracts as we go. But we have a number of them in current negotiations and evaluations. So we believe that we should be able to translate them into concrete business in the near future. Moving to David again for some financial ambitions.

Yes, thank you. So we have an ambition of having a sales category of the year 23 to 25 that is above 20%. 23 came in as a whole on 13, meaning that we need to deliver more growth in 24 and 25 to ensure that we deliver on what we have communicated here. So in Q4, we are above that target with 21% growth. Gross margin wise, we say that we aim for a gross margin that is 80 or above 80%. And we land on 80% in this quarter, which is important to see that we can maintain a healthy gross margin with more growth. And to be a bit open, this has been also something that we have been a bit concerned about. So this has been an important focus for us to ensure that we grow while protecting our gross margin. So this is a very strong focus for us. Adjusted EBITDA margin is also landed target to be on or above 20%. We are on 18, so not fully there yet, but the trend is pointing in the right direction. So clear focus, continue to deliver growth, maintain a healthy margin and keep OPEX under control. And we believe that we will get there. So that's an important focus. And then we'll say that for the full year of 24, way to reach a positive operational cash flow for the full year, meaning the cash flow from our business, including a capitalized R&D. And at this point, that is still negative to a high degree, also due to negative working capital effects in the quarter from, as Jan said, inbound hardware shipments that were large in Q1. They will not be as large going forward, for example. We're building inventory for deliveries for later parts of this year to uphold delivery capacity. And we had unfavorable also mixed with spillover effects from Q4 in the working capital. And we're binding some accounts receivables that we will believe that we're able to translate into payments when we move throughout the year. So this will, we believe, will improve as we go forward. So I stopped there. Thank you, David.

Then just to round off, maybe this is most important for people who are new to Clovister or as a repetition for people who've been with us for a while. But basically the key takeaways from Clovister as an investment case, number one, we are operating on As you can imagine, a fast growing and important to state as well, a non-cyclical market. So we've seen the stability in the market, the stable growth. The trends are favorable, not to mention the combination of the geopolitical situation, the increased amount of cyber attacks, obviously, and the technology development with AI, for instance, being an important trend. As a second bullet, what we possess is a highly mature and also very capable software stack. Nowadays as well, AI powered, which we need to mention. Performance is powerful and the majority of the software is Clavister's own IPR. Super important. We have already a very international and also, I would say, a very diversified blue chip customer base and the customer base that is also distributed over very many contracts. So about 20,000 recurring contracts, contracts that provide customers with recurring software license revenue. Super important. The business model. As you can imagine, with a high degree of software in it is highly scalable. The gross margins and the scalability coming from that and the partner model we're building has a very interesting financial profile. So we believe that we have a platform established now with the tech, the business set up, the business model, the partner landscape, the team in place to execute on that. So that should be well in place to support the future growth. And speaking of the team, it is a motivated team, counting 100 employees plus now and with very low staff turnover, which means that we've built a very robust team with essentially decades of cybersecurity industry experience. So all in all, as our opinion, of course, is a good investment case. So with that, leaving back to you, Kate, for Q&A.

Yeah, thank you very much, John and David, for sharing your insights with us today. So, yeah, now it's time for the Q&A session. So we've already received quite a few questions, but please keep them coming in. You can post your questions in the Q&A box. And you can also, if you want to ask your questions directly, you can also raise your hand and then we can open your microphone. So also feel welcome to do that if that is your preferred option. So, but yeah, let's start with the first question then. So this is around the telecom business. So can you elaborate a bit more on the outlook for the telecom business? Have you seen any underlying pickups in activities?

We have actually. I mean, there are several signs pointing in that direction. We see that the big challenge before has been the build up and the rollout of the so-called standalone 5G networks. We see clear signs now that more and more operators are actually opting in and planning for and actually building those type of networks. Working with partners such as Nokia and to some degree Ericsson, the feedback we're having, the discussions we're having both directly and indirectly with the mobile operators gives us more confidence in that there is investments coming on the horizon.

Okay. Thanks for elaborating on that. Does the growth in Q1 come from all the business overall or is it only focused on defence?

From a revenue perspective, it's all businesses apart from Telekom who had a slight decline, but all the other businesses are providing growth.

Could you elaborate a bit more on your next generation firewall business and the shipment of new hardware?

Quite an open-ended question, but I'll try to start. I mean, the business as such includes software as a key element. And in quite many customer deliverables, we include hardware appliances, basically the hardware component that is used to run our software. In our business model today, we ship the hardware up front, obviously, and the software business is done a license contract or subscription contract over either single months, few months or up to several years, depending on the customer profile. What we've seen in this quarter is an uptake in delivers. Essentially, we're starting new contracts, we're shipping more hardware than previous quarters. And as David alluded to in previous quarters, we've seen that when we've had a high uptake on volume, more shipments rather, then that has had a negative impact on the margins. We've been able to sustain the margins in this quarter despite that. So it's been an ongoing work to secure higher margins also on our hardware shipments to basically mitigate that impact. I'm not sure if that answered the question or if there were more specific questions. Please kindly follow up.

Okay, yeah. There's some inventory buildup during the quarter. What's the thoughts behind this?

We, I mean, we, of course, in order to be able to deliver our firewall software, quite often, in most cases, not always, but often, the customer buys a turnkey appliance. So it is an appliance with our software on it, which is required in order for us to actually be able to sell our software. We don't build the hardware ourselves. We source them from a couple of few manufacturers. Of course, a lead time from us placing an order, having them built and shipped here, that takes a couple of months. Also, in order to land on both, especially favorable production costs, we need to source these in fairly big sizes, batches, because otherwise the cost for the single batch firewall hardware is too high, which has an impact on our ability to sell it and definitely on our margins. That's why it is quite lumpy deliveries in our inventory. But then we sit with quite modern appliances. We did a big refresh in our hardware portfolio a couple of years ago, and we have quite long life's expectancies on our hardware profile. So it is us sourcing at a favorable price point, securing delivery capacity that we make sure that we have enough in our hardware to sustain us for a certain time period. So that means that the hardware will go up and down. So now we sit with a good situation with hardware, meaning that we expect less Inbound shipments, not not on these high levels for a foreseeable future. And of course, this will then generate cash flows for us as we deliver them continuously to our customers. So I hope that answer the question. Otherwise, say, as you come with more detailed follow up questions and we try to answer that.

Yeah. Following along here so we can pick pick up any follow up questions. So how much is your core geographical market growing compared to your non-core markets?

Maybe that's a question for you, David. Well, in the report, we don't specify our sales in any specific market. So it's hard for us to give a very clear answer to that question, but we can share some. insight that we concluded that to deliver more growth for Clavister, we needed to have more focus both on our customer verticals to who do we sell and how do we ensure that we have the right solutions and that we have the right expertise for those verticals. So that has been one part of the focus journey. Another one is geographical, where we have left, we no longer have sales presence, for example, in certain markets. Outside the EU, which we had before, and zooming in even in EU, focusing more tightly on the Nordic market and the dark market as primary markets. We also have quite a good presence within France, Benelux and Italy. So this is the major markets for us where we see most growth in Germany and the Nordics, because that is the core focus outside of EU. Then it depends market on different market because this is no longer a focus for us. So we don't expect these markets to deliver growth. Some of them are rather a bit declining, which was a choice we did. Let's not try to know the cost for delivering growth in certain markets. The value proposition for Clavisor isn't strong enough. So let's generate growth where we have the best possibility to do so. So it's definitely the case. that we see most growth within the Nordics and the German speaking markets, which is also in line with our strategy.

Okay, thanks for elaborating on that. So yes, I've answered a lot of questions around base business and also the telecom business. So we have questions for the defence, regarding defence industry. I have a few here, so I'll just pick a few, but I think they overlap a bit in a way as well. I understand that it's hard to comment on future orders, but if we look at the defence business and more specifically the business outside of the partnership with BAE Systems, can you shed any more light on the developments and lead times with other partners, including General Dynamics? The General Dynamics one has been asked two or three times now.

That's a very good question, so thanks for that. So I'd like to... To respond to that question, first giving a bit of a backdrop to why we have set up our business the way we've had, mainly focusing on a partner business. So we have in Clavistry in general, regardless of business area, we have extremely few customers to whom we do direct sales. It's barely non-existing. We rate... customers such as BE Systems and General Dynamics and others in the defense as partners as well. They are our channel to reach the end customer in the defense case being the Ministry of Defense's and those kind of users. The business structure that we set out to build in defense is starting always with some kind of assignment whereby we support the partner or the end customer in some cases to understand and to design the requirements on cybersecurity, keeping in mind that cyber is an active threat in defense, but it's also a very... Very traditional business, very heavy industry business. So clearly that industry needs support from experts such as Clavister and others. So first part of our assignments with defense partners and customers typically start with some kind of consultancy service, helping them with the requirements. Following to that, we get typically invited, if there is a next step, we typically get invited to proof of concept, some kind of product evaluation or tech evaluation. And that is what I referred to in one of the previous slides when we have a number of ongoing tech evaluations at the moment. Following on that, we typically then enter into some kind of pre-series or beta testing, if you like. And following on that, we're looking at a serious contract. This process is obviously quite timely. We look at our process with the systems specifically. We're looking at the multi-year process from the initial engagement, designing, helping with requirements until the first serial contract was signed. We looked at four years of lead time. Now, luckily, we have a number of activities in parallel, so we're not needing to wait four years between each and every deal. So if we zoom in a little bit just for the sake of argument on the systems as we stand, we're now part of all the modern CV 90 deliveries that the systems have won in the recent years. And that includes four and customer nations in Europe. Which means that our work so far has bared fruits, being that we've gotten designed in, we've become an integrated part of the infantry fighting vehicles that VA systems are building. Which of course increases the likelihood for us being part of upcoming projects and upcoming contracts as well. This is the same type of characteristics we're trying to build in other partners with other vehicle producers outside of the systems. And those include not only General Dynamics, those includes a number of other partners that we have highlighted in previous reports and previous presentations. Partners such as Saab, such as MBDA, such as Milram Robotics, for instance. And we've come various far, or, you know, we have come Not as far as we've come in the systems, but in some cases we are in serious delivers already, but with partners that we can't name for classified reasons. In some situations we have reached to the point where we are part of a design win. We're moving now into the actual serious deliveries contract negotiations. One of those partners would be General Dynamics, where we announced last year, last summer, that we were part of the NIVA vehicle architecture, the new electronics vehicle architecture from General Dynamics. And that means that they had pointed out that the time cloud was there to be their choice of cybersecurity supplier. Obviously, from that point, then there is a number of ongoing vehicle programs running in Europe and elsewhere where General Dynamics are building vehicles. They are in the design phase for the new generation of those vehicles. And we're slowly but surely moving into concrete discussions on those programs. So I think the key message here is that we are. we we are moving into several partners several vendors of several vehicles we're creating anchor points with them using different methods such as being part of the design work and requirements work and slowly but surely we start seeing concrete programs coming out and coming out of them but the key message is time it takes time but i think the important thing is with with with as of current not only having one project with the systems we have four for nations and we do not only have BAE Systems as paying customer, we have several other or we have other defense customers as well. Quite a length answer.

Yeah, thanks for that, John. But coming back to BAE and the CB90 contract, we've recently seen in the news that around the defence in Denmark regarding BAE providing upgrades to Danish CB90s. So why haven't we seen any traction for Clavister regarding that contract so far?

Again, coming back to time. So the ones who followed us for a while knew that from the point where BAE Systems announced their win with two countries in Eastern Europe. It took exactly one year for their subcontractors to receive orders and contracts in turn. We can't say that the time in this case would be that long. We can't even state in a forum like this that it's granted that we will have that contract. But again, we are part of all four nations, modern nations with modern infantry fighting vehicles from the system. So the likelihood is very high that we'll be part also of the upcoming contracts. But again, respect for the time.

Okay, yeah. So we have a few more finance-related questions. So David, these are probably coming in for you. How should we view the OPEX and COPEX levels coming quarters? Do you have needs that require new recruits that could result in an incremental increase in OPEX? Or how should we view the cost control in the short term?

I think we've for quite some of it is a good question, but I think we're from quite some time now has been enabled to demonstrate that we can keep our objects under control and scale our business and generate more more sales. We don't see that we have big gaps within our technology platform that require us to significantly go out and hire more developers, for example. So we don't see that. So our focus here is let's maintain a strict view on our cost base, do a selected few investments if you think they are motivated that they will be able to capture more growth for us, for example. But as we said before in this presentation and in the report as well, we maintain a strict view on OPEX for this year. So our main focus is to generate more growth from the cost base we already have. But of course, this is something to monitor and see, you know, would growth continue to pick up? And we see that, you know, to generate future growth and to be able to capitalize on that. If investments would support that and would be justified, let's have a look at that. But we don't see that at this point.

Okay. We also have a question. In the report, other external costs have decreased significantly. What's the driver behind this?

Yeah, I mean, if you then would be looking at staff costs, you see that they in turn have increased. When we set out on the cost optimization program, we used external consultants to load balance the needs within the organization. And as that has been stabilized, we have been transforming more costly consultants to more level, less costly own employees. And of course, it's preferable to build a team that consists mainly of our own staff rather than external consultants. So that is that transition from consultants to own staff that explains those changes within both external costs, but also staff expenditures.

Yeah. When do you think we'll have a positive net profit?

I think a little bit hard to give an exact date for that. But if we zoom in a bit and try to give us a straight answer to that question. Again, going back to the strategy and the long term plan, we said that 2023 would be our first EBITDA positive year. We achieved that. Then the natural next steps for that is reaching EBIT positive and then net sales positive. And I would say that net sales is not profit. Would, of course, then be not in this year, but a potential target for next year to get that.

Yeah. So in combination with that, we've got some questions around ARR. So are you satisfied with the ARR growth? And is this the ARR growth level that we can expect in the future?

I mean, John, you feel free to pitch in, but I think satisfied is a dangerous word. So I wouldn't use that and say that we're satisfied with 15 percent growth. I think we're coming from a situation where we saw quite low growth in our recurring revenues. That has changed and we are on a much stabilized trend in growing our recurring revenues. But of course, our ambition is to be above 15%. So the trend is there, as it has been with net sales for some time, then it's about tilting that trend curve continuously upwards. And that's That's, of course, the target. And that will come from several sources. Of course, more contracts is the most important factor. And I think the focus journey we have been running in parallel with this, an increased verticalization of the company, focusing on certain markets, amending our offerings to make sure that they are on par with what's what's expected within these fields, building partnerships with those who are able to sell and scale the Clavister offerings. I mean, all of these things are important, but of course, when we reached the levels where we would go out and say we're satisfied, I knowing ourselves, I don't think we will ever say that we're satisfied because, you know, at that point you tend to lose focus and drive. But, you know, we strive for higher levels, of course, than 15 percent. But it's again, it's it's a part of a journey where we can see that we're progressing on that journey. But of course, we're going to reach further than we have so far, of course.

Yeah. So we've got the question around cash flow. In regards to free cash flow, what should we expect in terms of working capital development coming quarters?

I mean, working capital, if, you know, In this quarter, we have large inbound shipments to the inventory. Of course, that has a short-term negative impact on cash flows in the quarter where we pay for that hardware. We did that in Q1. There's a large amount of appliances. This will fuel sales in coming quarters where they will have a positive cash flow contribution. There will, of course, be inbound deliveries to the inventory also throughout this year, but not on these large levels. It will be significantly smaller, so it will not have that big effect. So that impact will be rather positive in coming quarters. Then we saw quite a decrease in working capital debt in this quarter. We don't see that that trend will continue in Q2, but rather now we go into Q2 with lower levels of short-term debt. So that shouldn't drop further. And we have been buying in quite a lot of cash in accounts payable, which will be translated into payments. So I would expect working capital changes to be positive in Q2, given what we see at this point.

Okay. Regarding the rights issue earlier this year, what will we do with the large amount of money we have from the rights issue?

Going back to what did we say during the rights issue, we said that This will be used for, I mean, as we've seen also in this presentation, Clavisor is on a journey to a cash flow positive operations. We're not there yet. So, of course, parts of this will be used to sustain Clavisor until we are at that point. So that's a smaller part, but still a part of the rights issue. Then we sit with Clavisor. With a large debt to the European Investment Bank, we also used the possibility to defer tax payments during the post-pandemic support that was given to enterprise, meaning that there is debt in the balance sheet. So parts of this will also then be used to reduce our debt levels going forward. Then, of course, as we secured new repayments plans with our biggest lender, the European Investment Bank, EIB, we see that we are over, we sit with a good cash position in relation to what are our obligations under the repayment plan that we're in. So, of course, a potential use of cash is also to do potential voluntary prepayments of the EIB loan, but that's something we will need to get back on. And then of course, just adding to that, we sit with the two option branches, eight and nine, from the rights issue and the units issue. And they will strike in September this year and March next year, adding additional cash to Clavister. And what we have been saying then in the prospectus was that all cash coming from all the net proceeds coming from that will be used to make voluntary prepayments to the loan, pushing that downwards, then making the balance sheet more manageable. So I hope that answers that question.

Okay, thanks for sharing those insights. We have one more question. They're changing the world a bit or going into subscription models and the value that we gain out of that. So how much is the value for Clavister increasing when a next generation firewall customer goes from the old subscription model to the new model? And how many of your customers are left on the old model?

Yeah, I can pick up on that one and they can compliment. So when we simulate our customer stock before we introduce the new subscription based model, We realized that most of our customers, they sit with the Clavister products for an extensive period of time, in many cases, seven years, some cases even longer. But the previous business model only gave Clavister value for the initial sales, of course, and voluntarily for support contracts for a limited period of time. So our assumption after doing the simulation was that if we move to a subscription-based model, we should be able to increase our total customer value or total contract value for a typical customer at around 40%, so 4.0% additional value coming from each customer. It's, of course, simulation, but that's what our stats points towards. With regards to how many customers are left on the old model, not entirely updated on that one, but I would say still a A bit around half of our customer stock is still running on old model and they are subsequently moved. It's part of the effort being run by our partners and our sales teams to slowly but surely move all our customers over to the new model. We know that that clearly helps, of course, ARR growth and other metrics for us. But it's also an activity that needs to be balanced towards other new sales activities to drive other types of growth.

Yeah, it's a good answer. I can add two things. By end of year, I would say that at least two-thirds of the contract stock, we can expect that to be migrated to the A new offering. And I think there is all maybe to a certain degree, a soft value from from migrating from an old to the new business model. The old one was opt in, meaning that we spent lots of resources renewing customers that, you know, that wants to be a customer. But you need to renew all of them manually. And since we have many contracts, that means there is quite a lot of effort was directed into renewing customers rather than selling or upselling to new or existing customers. While as in the new model, they are on and that's an opt out model, meaning that you will stay on as a customer. You will receive, you know, you will have your license until you say you no longer want it, meaning that we don't spend sales resources on manually renewing contracts. So that that. effort is continuously dropping, meaning that we can shift more and more resources into new cells and up cells and stuff. So that's that's very important. Also in was one of the reasons for making this decision. And also very important is In the newer business model, if you're no longer a paying customer, the firewall stops. The other one had perpetual elements in it, meaning that we had a certain degree of revenue leakage since you could still use the firewall even though you did not pay for it. That is no longer possible, meaning that we are protecting our revenues much, much better than we did before. And as that transition continues, that effect also will increase over time.

Yeah. So, yeah, thank you very much to the audience for all these questions today. That's really valuable for us also to be able to dive into diverse topics and really answer the questions that are pressing for you. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. That means I have just two questions for you two then. So, John, what are you most proud of from the last quarter?

I mean, obviously, I'm super proud that we're able to show these metrics, especially in, you know, to some extent, a bit of a tough market condition. Also within tech, we've seen some challenges out there. So I'm happy to see that we'll be able to both deliver growth and improve margins and reduce costs at the same time. And seeing that we keep on filling up our funnel with more customers. more more and more and and and larger and larger prospective customers so that's what i'm most proud of all right thank you then david what are your highlights from the last quarter

Yeah, I think more or less a copy of what Jan said. But I mean, we have been sticking to our plan that we set out quite a long time ago, delivering on that, transitioning the business to what we believe is more favorable terms. And we see that we can generate growth and keep our costs under control. So, you know, we continue to do more with what we have so we can scale the company better. And I think that's something I like to highlight.

Yeah. Okay, yes, and thanks to you, John and David, for the presentation and for answering all the questions. And thank you to our audience for attending today's session. This session has been recorded, so you can also find the recording on our website shortly. So, yeah, have a great day, and thanks to you all.

Thank you. Thank you.