Gapwaves AB (publ)

Hi and welcome to RedEye. My name is Rasmus Jakobsson and I will be moderating this live queue with Gapwaves about the Q2 report that they published today. With us we have CEO Jonas Ehinge who will give us a brief presentation about the quarter which will also be followed by a Q&A session. So before I hand it over to you, Jonas, I just want to remind everybody to please fill out the question form that is online on the website and we will process the questions after the presentation. But with that, please go ahead with your presentation.

Thank you, Rasmus. Great to be here together with you and Red Eye and also have the opportunity to present our Q2 report for 24. which was published earlier this morning. I'll come back to the report along with some updates on the company in my presentation. So just as a recap for viewers and participants that are new to Gapwaves or the other way around. Gapwaves is a Swedish tech company based in Gothenburg. originate from innovation research at Chalmers Technical University in Gothenburg around waveguide antenna technologies. And the company was formed in 2011 and was listed on the Nasdaq First North in 2016. Coming out of research, Of course, we started with a very good technology base protected by patents and patents has remained a core activity at Gapwaves to ensure that we have a strong protection, but also strong technology advantage versus other potential competitors in the market. And today we have more than 44 patent families in all of the relevant and important markets. Gap waves started out with a focus on telecom applications, specifically 5G. However, the telecom industry did not migrate into higher frequencies, which require waveguide antenna technologies. our waveguide antenna solutions. They found other ways to upgrade networks to provide bandwidth and handle capacity needs from users. However, I want to emphasize that telecom remains a core focus or a core future opportunity for gap waves. And as such, we're also keeping a very close eye because there is no doubt that the telecom industry will migrate and move into utilization of higher frequencies. those frequency bands have already been allocated and specified for the industry. And I'll come back to that when I start to summarize the Q2 report. Our main focus as a company today is the application of waveguide and our version of waveguide antennas within automotive radar sensors. And our technology has a very strong potential in this industry because the waveguide antennas that gap waves can provide have a very strong performance, but also very important. They provide cost efficiency benefits in high volume production and utilizes more established production methods that are very suitable for the high volumes in the automotive industry, namely millions of units of specific antenna versions every year. And we also have a related market segment related to automotive radar sensors, which we call mobility. That's similar sensors, but for different applications in smart cities where you can use radar sensors to monitor traffic and direct traffic flows. And you can use it for surveillance or presence detection, energy control, based on the density of people during nighttime, for instance, for a city. And also other types of vehicles that can be automated. In fact, industry vehicles such as trucks in harbors or mines or in farming or at airports. are in a way much easier to automate because those environments are confined and they are very very well defined and we see that in this segment that there are a lot of very interesting opportunities for our antenna technology but also for radar sensors. Gapwaves is around 42 employees today, and we work with very prominent customers in the automotive market, such as Bosch, Hella. And Hella is also an investor, an industrial investor in Gapwaves with 10%. of the shares and the stock market. And they made an investment in company in 2021 of 182 millions. We also have other customers such as Smart Micro. I'll come back to that in a bit. So coming over to our Q2 report, I'm very happy to report and to publish a very strong report for Gapwaves following the strong report we had for Q1. And some of the highlights in our second quarter is, of course, the expansion of additional development assignments from Bosch. It's a frequent question we get, you know, what's going on with Bosch, what's the status, etc. So this very much shows that the ongoing project with Bosch is progressing as planned. And during the development, of course, Bosch has realized that they also want to cover some other aspects in this project, which they have contracted us for. So I'm happy to report that expansion of their current contract. And I want to remind also you and the market that we have a supply contract with Bosch, not only development and licensing our technology and put it into production, but also to where the stipulated supplier of the antennas we now develop together with Bosch. Another dear question or frequent question is, of course, the undisclosed tier one, European based, which has during the quarter, as in previous quarters, continued with the joint development efforts of a new antenna in the automotive segment. In addition to to progressive or progression in the development project, We have also concluded a letter of intent defining the intention of the parties to enter into a production and supply agreement of the antenna that we now develop. And we think this is a major step forward and a clear indication of the potential in this collaboration with that customer. We have talked about production start for our antennas and in Q1 we emphasized that we went into production together with Hella for the first automotive antenna that we developed with Hella in 21 and that has now entered the production phase in the first quarter. In the second quarter, this production ramp up is still ongoing. It will continue into 2025. But another important milestone in the second quarter was that one of the antennas that we developed together with Smart Micro in the smart city segment has also been completed and is now entering the serial production and production phase. During the quarter we were also awarded, together with some other selected companies, research grants from Vinnova. One was related to future telecom applications related to 6G and the other was also related to to more automotive radar applications but at higher frequencies both the frequencies used today but also even higher frequencies at 140 gigahertz that will be utilized in the future so it's a clear indication that gap waves is at the forefront and we're maintaining this technology edge that we have built uh utilized as a base for our our business and our relationships with our customers A very important milestone for us is of course the first Asian based tier one project and order and we're very much looking forward to engaging in this project now it has started and of course this has also a huge opportunity in the future like for every automotive tier one. Sensrad, which is an associated company of Gapwaves. We're currently 30% owner of Sensrad. And it's an important strategic company, strategic initiative from Gapwaves with Sensrad. And the Sensrad product is now entering into a launch phase and being finalized. to be put into production during the fall. And that includes the antenna, and Gapwaves is the supplier of the antenna to Sensrub, of course. In general, as you may have noticed, Gapwaves has during the second quarter had a strong order inflow, and also that is reflected in the numbers during the quarter. And in summary, and you can find, of course, more information in the report that was published this morning, but the sales in the quarter was 14.5 million up more than 60% from the same quarter last year. And of course, we also improved the result coming up from minus 9.5 to minus 8.8 this quarter. But look at the first six months where we see very significant progress. Sales for the first six months, 30.1 million versus 13.8 last year. So more than 100% growth in the first six months. And also for the first six months, we see a stronger result, significantly stronger result than the same period last year at 17.6 million versus minus 25.6 last year. I'm also happy to emphasize that we see the effects of this growth on our operating cash flow, which was positive at 5.2 million. We're supporting the commercialization at Sensrad uh through through loans and we uh which amounted to 6.8 million in in the second quarter generally strong sales and and in growing sales growing gross profit in the company we're still in the same scale up phase that we have discussed in earlier conversations, Rasmus. And it's targeting building capability and capacity to deliver on the contracts we have already entered into, but also the ones that we expect will come in the coming years. And as such, we see an increase in personnel costs comparing to last year, not necessarily within the second quarter this year. But when you compare with the same period last year, of course, the increase in competence and the organization can be noticed in terms of increased number of employees in the company. Finally on this slide, I also want to emphasize that if you look at the first quarter and second quarter this year, comparing historically going back three additional years, they are strong quarters. Most of our revenue is project-based revenue and that is natural because there are development projects and customers pay us to do developments or products that they will utilize in their own products. But as we enter the production phase, more and more of this revenue will change into product revenue from our deliveries to our customers. And that's a very important takeaway message from this quarter, that also in this quarter, like in the first quarter, we have entered a production phase for yet another antenna for our customers. Now I will switch over to just outlining the market and the pipeline that we see for Gapwaves with our current customers and what we have been able to disclose so far in our reports and news messages. So Gapwaves market and the automotive industry in terms of radar sensors, that's a very important fast-growing market at least 25 percent per year for the rest of this decade and that is driven by legislation legal requirements on safety features and driver assistance systems in the cars and eu is leading the way but also north america are implementing the same type of regulations And combined with this, there are also technical requirements, i.e. at which frequency bands can automotive radar sensors operate. And that has been a change since... six, seven years ago when they could operate at lower frequencies. And back then they could also utilize other traditional antenna technologies. Moving up into the 77 gigahertz band means that these customers need to switch and transition into a new antenna technology, waveguide antennas. And Gapwaves has a competitive advantage with our version of antenna technology. waveguide antenna technologies. So Gapwaves is in a perfect position to capture this potential going forward. Of course, a very important driving factor is also that we as users of cars or owners of cars, we get successively higher and higher expectations on the driver assistance and user interaction with the cars. So there is a consumer Driving force also going through the OEMs and then being expressed as requirements on the Tier 1 radar sensor systems. So we are looking at a situation where we go from few sensors, radar sensors per car into significantly higher or almost three times higher the average number of radar sensors per car during this decade. So we're very confident and very positive about the market situation and market outlook going forward. Now, an update to this list as we have added more contracts and more customers and we enter into more development projects that will result in products and product deliveries in the future. This is an update and guidance. Those of you who have listened to Gapwaves and myself before know that in the automotive industry, the startup production is really a key moment. Because once you pass that date, then you can be very confident about growing volumes and a number of years or many years, six to eight years of high volume product deliveries. And with Hella, we've communicated before that this would happen in 2024. In fact, it started already in Q1. Now with SmartMicro, we are also following the plan. And one of the antennas, we're developing several antennas for SmartMicro. One of the antennas is now going into production in the second quarter and will be supplied to SmartMicro, the customer, during the remainder of the year and for several years to come. also Sensrad as part of our plan and Sensrad's plan is of course that we're commencing serial production and deliveries during 2024 and then you can see the timelines for our other customers Bosch as before late 26 or early 27 the European tier one that we started to work with first quarter 2023 for development is planning startup production in 26. And the same based on the information we have from Magna and Bionir, they're also planning a rollout and startup production in 26. And the new Asian tier one, which we entered into a development contract with in the second quarter, they're planning for startup production in 2027. Now, the automotive tier ones, they tend to stick to the plans of startup production because it's very complex and very costly to change the timing because of the number of suppliers and the rather expensive investments involved. So as we've seen with Hella and also the others, we expect these timelines to stay as per plan. So coming to an end in this shorter quarterly presentation, Gapwaves is very well positioned in an existing, strongly growing market, which we see will be growing for a long time. And it's driven by regulation and customer needs in parallel. So it creates a very strong market situation for our company and our products. We have now a complete antenna offering, which means that we do not only provide development services and technology that customers can license. We prefer to be the complete antenna partner for our customers. they can come to Gapways, we can design and develop their antennas which they integrate into their radar sensors but we will also put it into production, ensure that production can happen with the right quality at the right place and with the right capacity for scale up into high volumes and we're positioning ourselves as a complete antenna partner for our customers. And that's a change compared to a few years ago when we were more of a technology and engineering company. And our scale up journey is focused on building capability and capacity to be this full partner with the right competence in the organization, but also the right capacity for the scale up, not only for one automotive tier, but for several, where we have a high ambition in terms of market share in this segment. And we also partner with external factories and production companies. So Gapways don't have to build its own factories around the world. We select, certify, qualify production partners based on their competence in production and work very closely with them to set up production of our antennas. But Gapways is the interface towards the customer. And again, coming back to our customers, in just a few years, Gapwave's automotive journey started in end of 2018, early 2019. Bionair was the first agreement. But in just five years, we've added very strong customer relationships with the top-notch, the absolutely leading companies. automotive radar sensor suppliers, the tier ones in the world. And I cannot emphasize enough the relevance of being able to work together with companies like Hella and Bosch and also the other tier ones. where we've not been able yet to disclose their names. And also other customers in the other segments like smart city and transport solution in the mobility segment. So all in all, we're We're very happy about the progress that we've made during the quarter. And also, we are confident about the rest of the year. And we expect the rest of the year to continue in the same way as we've seen during the first six months. I think I'll stop there, Rasmus. I know you've received quite a few questions, and I think it's more interesting for the audience that we discuss those questions. And for the other information related to the report, it's of course available in the published report.

great thank you very much for that presentation i thought we start off with some more short-term questions and then we move on to to the more longer term plans so if we start off uh hella started production in q1 you had smart micro in q2 and what should we expect from these customers in the next half of the year

In terms of Hella, that's a royalty agreement. It's one of the first. It's from 2021. Obviously, Gapwaves did not have the production set up. So Hella and Gapwaves jointly approached a production partner. So this specific antenna will generate royalties for gap waves. And with royalties means that there is a certain delay in terms of the factory being able to produce, ship it to Hella, Hella putting it into their production and accounting for the number of antennas. so we can be awarded the royalty based on the number of antennas. So there is a delay. The short summary of that means that you should not expect to see significant contribution to our top line from the royalty side during this year. But I expect it to be noticeable next year. However, have in mind, as we've talked about before, The royalties for an antenna product are, of course, much smaller than the price of a complete antenna product. And that's also why Gapwaves have moved away from a royalty technology model into being a complete supplier, providing antennas and invoicing antennas as its sales. And also in the coming years, I think it's fair to expect that The revenue mix for Gapways will change from being project and engineering based to having a much bigger portion of product sales for our customers.

All right. And just want to make sure about smart micro. Could you comment a little bit about that as well?

Good. Good. Thanks for reminding me. Yes. Smart micro is outside automotive. So the timelines are shorter. So we expect deliveries to continue. to happen during this year's obviously since production has started however also in this segment there is a bit of a ramp up because antennas are part of a radar sensor so smart micro also need to ramp up their production of the complete sensor But I think it's fair to assume that you will see revenue contribution already this year from Smart Micro and leading into a stronger growth already next year.

All right. If I understand you correctly, we can expect some product contribution this year, but it will still mainly be project based for the rest of the year.

Yes.

All right. And we received a comment about your gross margins. Could you just comment a bit of what does the gross margins look like for the in-house antennas that you produce?

Yeah, we cannot disclose specifics on that, partially because all of our antennas are customer specific and our agreements with the customers are prevent us from disclosing that for competitive reasons. But generally speaking, the more complex or the more capable an antenna is, it also drives gross margins upwards. And also, looking at the market segments, in the market segments outside of automotive margins are higher significantly higher than in automotive however automotive has Excuse me, it has very big volumes on the other hand. So the total business is quite significant and quite a lot bigger in the automotive. But I cannot disclose any specific numbers on the gross margins, partially because of customers, but also our own competition.

All right. I understand. Could you expand a little bit about the joint development agreement that you signed with Bosch and the extension there?

The extension is simply adding some development aspects that were not covered initially and that the customer, together with GapWaves, have signed. have realized during the course of the project. So it's just additional developments. Nothing else has changed. So GapWaves is still the stipulated supplier of the antenna product that we developed together with Bosch as a customer. And the timelines, as you saw in my presentation, are the same as before. Same as the intended volumes and the intended value, sales value of this contract.

All right. And could you expand a little bit about the letter of intent with the undisclosed European tier one customer? I think you stated in your CEO letter that you aim to form a partnership regarding large scale production and delivery of antennas. Can you expand a bit more about that?

Yeah, as you have seen since Q1 2023, the customer has placed progressive uh orders in terms of development efforts and we're now getting into a position where we uh the antenna will be finalized and it's also natural for the customer after making these investments on their side both money wise but also time wise to now start to plan for production and to declare the intent and to enter into discussion about a supply and production agreement. And this is a natural step that we've also seen with other automotive tier ones.

All right, so we should understand that's something similar to what you have with Bosch, is that correct?

Yeah, similar contractual setup. Now, as we have already We're already in a development project. I think this new contract that we intend to set up together will be focused on production and supply of the antennas.

All right. And you have added a few different new tier ones over the last year or so. Can you comment anything about the pipeline of additional tier ones that you may be working with? What does that look like?

Yeah, we have a pipeline of additional tier ones that we are in discussions with. So as we have mentioned before, there is significant interest from automotive tier ones to engage and transfer their radar sensors into waveguide antenna technology. So we see continued momentum there. And that means that, yes, there is a pipeline of additional tier ones that we are discussing with and negotiating with for development and supply agreements, of course.

All right. Can you tell us anything about the geographic exposure of these? Like, do you have any American tier ones, any more Asian ones, like anything about that?

Yeah. Now, Bioneer is being part of Magna, it's a North American tier one, of course. We have discussed before that we've seen since the last six to nine months an uptake on the Asian side among the tier ones. And I think the announcement in Q2 about the Asian tier one is a consequence of that increased interest and strong interest we see from Asian tier ones and the automotive industry, of course. As everybody knows, in Asia it's very, very prominent and significant. So we're very happy about that. In terms of North America, the Western tier ones, they have a majority of market share there. So I think we're well covered in terms of North America also.

All right, then I noticed that the Asian tier one that you add that they had started production 2027. I believe that's like a three year production development cycle. Do you think we have spoken earlier about it being between three and five years or so? So do you see that these customers are in a rush to get get this product out on the market?

Generally, across Asia, yes. They are probably on the shorter side of that timeframe, the three to five years. Also in China, we have representation in China now, as we've discussed before. They are very aggressive in terms of timelines. And I think everybody in the automotive industry see the pace of the Chinese automotive industry and the rollout of models, etc. And that's reflective also of what we're seeing in terms of the radar sensors market there.

Are there any constraints why you cannot go to volume within one year or so?

Normally it's the production setup or industrialization phase. There are quality standards that require certain things. Probably gap waves is not the main threshold, but the quality standards that has to be met. require certain steps to be taken which takes certain time so if the development of an antenna is completely finished and the specification and design is approved then normally it could be done in 18 months in terms of before SOP but um it also depends on the customer the the they decide on on the timelines of course but there are no one will put a product on the market which doesn't meet the quality standards in the industry so i think everybody has to adhere to that anyway

All right. And you mentioned that you have representation in China, which is ZenThread. Could you give us... Have you received any feedback from them? Is there anything particular with that type of market or anything you have learned from that?

It's very clear to us that the industry interest for waveguide antenna technologies is very strong. And there is an entire... local ecosystem of tier ones, which we're now tapping into, and timelines are more compressed in the Chinese automotive industry, like I just explained. So far, we remain positive and optimistic about the opportunities in China for gap waves.

All right, I just want to take a moment to remind the viewers that they can still submit questions online and we can get them answered here today. And we did receive an investor question before about under stating that had raised capital and asking if this customer is still relevant for gap waves.

Absolutely. We're in close collaboration, I would say, with Under. We developed antennas for their radar sensors a couple of years back. And Under has restructured their business focus since then and is now focusing on being a chipset provider to automotive industry, but also to some other segments. That means, however, that doesn't mean that the interest for an antenna solution, which is designed for under, has been reduced. In fact, it's the opposite. The stronger UNDER gets in the market, the higher the interest for GapWave's antenna that we have developed with UNDER. So we're also, by UNDER, being presented as the waveguide antenna solution for their chipset. So the stronger UNDER becomes and the more successful they are in the market, the more opportunities there will be for us with our already ready developed or already developed antenna solution.

All right. And you mentioned briefly during your presentation, the sense route and how to associate company, etc. Like, can you give us a bit of an update just how they are progressing with their timeline and what is going on there?

SensRide is in the final phase of the commercial product and they in fact started the launch of the first product which is called Hugin D1 and as I mentioned before we expect serial production of that to happen during the fall in SensRide and GapWaves will supply the antennas. They have a large number of customers that have ordered evaluation units of the commercial products. So they are awaiting deliveries now. And of course, some of those will, our expectation is that they will convert into serial orders from those customers in various market segments outside the automotive. And Sensrad also are working very closely with a Chinese customer for a local ITS intelligent and transport solution system for static radar sensors in cities. So all in all, there is significant progress on Sensrad side, both in terms of the product finalization, but also commercially.

All right. And can you give us any, do you have any projections or any targets that Sensored has in terms of reaching profitability, etc?

No, I cannot share that. And we haven't, Sensored has not disclosed any targets like that.

All right. We did receive a few questions about Gapwave's liquidity and cash position. And can you just give us your thoughts about the liquidity situation and how you're thinking about it?

Yeah, as you saw in the numbers, we have a strong cash position. Also during the quarter, we've seen significantly stronger cash flow and the company as a result from our growth, obviously commercial growth. And we expect, as I indicated, this to continue this positive growth and also to continue to contribute on the cash flow line item in our numbers. So right now, we think we're in a good cash position. uh however some of the automotive uh contracts are of course front heavy in terms of investments and that's always a discussion between us and the customer you know um how we share or how that upfront investment is is being balanced between the parties involved and uh we prefer to to have the maneuverability to to enter into the best contractual setup, commercially speaking, for Gapwave. So it's always good to have capability and financial resources to enter into these and win these contracts. So it's difficult to say from one contract to another and from one customer to another which model is the best. We look at the entire lifecycle and the entire business case of these contracts. Right now, we're well positioned in terms of cash and with the development that we've seen during the first six months and also our expectation for the remainder of the year, we will be in a good position.

I believe the quarter had quite a big change in working capital, positively contributing to the results. And I want to touch on, when you go to more of what we have called a fabless production model, where you actually sell the antennas, can you give us any indication of the working capital requirements of that?

The advantage of that model, Fabless or Fablight, means that we don't have to invest and create or build infrastructure. We partner with other companies that have it in place. Already they have factories, they have the staff, they have all the facilities, they have some of the equipment. And that means that you should not expect that we have to... create a lot of working capital in the company. In fact, it's a very important aspect for us, which we monitor closely, also as part of those contractual discussions with customers. And I have to remind you that the customers that we mostly cater to are really big companies with very strong financial resources. So I think we are definitely in a good position with our business model. And it also allows us to be faster because creating factories around the world in different locations is very time consuming, not only very costly.

Okay, so we should not expect Gapwaves to build up a lot of inventory before selling it to your customers.

Not necessarily, because once SOP sort of production is passed and it's ongoing deliveries and nobody's building up huge supplies, possibly the tier one want to have a certain buffer, but that's in their books and in their facilities, not in ours.

All right. And you also signed a supply agreement with Zensrad. Could you just expand a little bit more what that entails for you guys?

As Sensra now is finalizing the product and launching it, obviously they have expectations on volumes going forward and setting up a supply contract like this with some defined forecasting of volumes allows GapWaves, but also Sensra to ensure a good pricing on material and components, et cetera. So we are very positive about this and Sensrod, being Sensrod the customer, we're very happy about the progress that they made and that we're a supplier to the company. So it's very similar to what we've done before with Smart Micro, for instance.

Okay. And reading the report this morning, I noticed a new line item on the balance sheet about the long-term receivables. Can you just tell us what is in that line item?

Long-term receivables. Can you explain?

I think you have a line item called long-term receivables with associate companies for 15 million.

Okay, that's the loans for SenseRad and also as we invoice our deliveries to SenseRad.

All right. Reading your CEO letter again, I thought you were signaling a little bit about an increased costs going forward as you're scaling up the organization. Is that a correct understanding of what you were trying to say?

No, I really wanted to point out that we're still in a scaling up phase. But I already indicated earlier here that we're scaling up in terms of our production capability and capacity. So I think the main focus for us going forward will be to ensure that we have the right organizational setup and infrastructure to deliver on the contracts that we have already entered into and that we expect to enter into. So we don't expect to add a lot of development resources as we finalize projects for our customers. We also free up resources to take on new customers and new projects. So I think the scale up will now be focused on the production pilot line that we're setting up, but also staffing around our supply chain, purchasing, customer service, et cetera, in line with our contracts.

Okay, but should we expect the number of employees to increase then? Or how should I interpret that?

I think you should not expect the same increase as we've seen compared to last year, for instance.

Okay, that makes sense. We received a question here from the audience that gap waves should be a very clear acquisition target. And I know that Hella controls about 10% of the shares, but I still thought I would give you the opportunity to address this. Is gap waves an acquisition target?

I think ultimately that's an owner question. I feel that our automotive tier one customers They think it probably makes sense for them. That's my impression that Gapwaves remain an independent company, which they can partner with. Obviously, if one of the automotive tier ones would acquire Gapwaves, that means that they will also most likely exclude us from the rest of the market, which necessarily is not the best situation for Gapwaves as a company.

Okay. And then, are there any one-time license income or something similar that we can expect in the near term?

So far, we've seen from the large automotive tier ones that once they enter into a supply contract with Gapwaves, they make serious investments into the product. Then they also want to ensure certain access. to the technology, the underlying Gapwaves technology. So far, based on Veoneer, Bosch and Hella, there has been a one-time license revenue as we enter into those contracts. So I would expect that other tier ones follow the same pattern going forward.

okay and then for a final question are there any uh like non-recurring revenue incomes that we might also expect going forward from your existing customer base for instance yeah among the uh i am it's almost the same question as before the one before among the current ongoing customer projects there are some tier ones

And obviously, if they follow the same pattern as both Helen and we are near, there is likely an opportunity for for larger, you know, one time revenue from from licensing agreements.

Okay, and something that you popped into mind right now is like, is there a specific or is there an average amount of engineering costs that these customers place before reaching the start of production? Like, can we expect the Asian tier one to spend X amount before reaching that stage on development costs?

uh yes but it's related to the antenna in question that they they want to develop so you know certain antennas are more complex others are faster to develop because they are smaller less complete complex so so to give an example the hella antenna that was developed in 2021 that we started production with in in the first quarter that's a smaller corner antenna so that development was quicker on the other hand the bosch contract is targeting an imaging radar sensor so the sensor is very high end very high performing and that is the same for the antenna and that means that it takes longer to develop And not only on the GapWave side, but also on the customer side, because they have to develop the rest of their radar sensor in terms of the electronics and the housing, etc.

So it's not as easy to just generalize one customer and apply it to the next?

No, well, I mean, a corner antenna, that's very similar between different customers, larger antennas, imaging, or high resolution. It's similar among customers, but it's more related to the actual antenna development effort, not so much the customers. So, but a corner antenna is quite similar regardless of customer, for instance.

Okay. From what I can see, we don't have any more questions from the audience. So with that, I think we conclude this live queue.