Holmen AB (publ)

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the Interim Report presentation for Holmen. It's myself, Henrik, and Anders, who will take you through the presentation. And we do as we always do. We take your questions after the presentation. So let's begin. We are really happy to be able to show a result for the third quarter, which is on record levels again, not reaching up to exactly where we were in the second quarter, but that was totally outstanding. We have followed market pricing, meaning we have good pricing power, and we've also been able to control the cost situation. We'll come back to that. It's a lot of hard work when it comes to handling the energy situation in most of our business areas, which we will come back to a bit later in the presentation. Good profit level also means strong cash flow. And strong cash flow in our case means also that we have a really low net debt currently. Let's move on to forest and our different divisions. And I will start with a slightly different slide this time, just to remind you, we are, as you know, a company where the forest is in the center of everything we do. But we have also done it in actually a really good way during the years. We plant trees with a perspective of 80 to 100 years. And if you just look at what we have been able to accomplish the last, say, 50, 70 years, we have more wood standing in the forest than ever before, twice as much as after the Second World War, at the same time that we have over time been able to increase the harvest. But we have also, as one of few countries in the world, been able to... reach biodiversity index status which is let's call the good status it's us it's Finland and it's Canada and the rest of the countries aren't simply not there and if you look at Sweden it's also interesting to see you can't see it on this slide but we have improved a lot the last 30-40 years then moving on to the current market situation in the wood market We have talked a lot about tough competition for saw logs the last year at least. But things are changing, as you know. So when it comes to the saw mills, the activity is a bit lower. But when it comes to pulpwood, competition is increasing. Partly because there is not coming any wood anymore from Russia. The pulp mills are still running full. And it means also that less wood Mills running full, more competition, and also when it comes to the energy situation, there is an interest for also burning the wood as prices are currently. Prices are ticking up, Anders. That normally means that we should make a little bit more money in the forest.

Yes, Henrik. The third quarter represents a quite normal quarter. Around 350 million SEC is a normal profit level in today's market environment. We have prices that are Year over year, 15% higher. We have some higher costs as well, but prices, we have established a new profit level in the forest division, reflecting the current market conditions. When it comes to asset values, Henrik, we can take the next slide. You all know that our forests are booked at the value or based on transaction prices in the areas of Sweden where we own forests. We update that annually in the fourth quarter. We'll do it in the fourth quarter of this year. The graph we have included in this presentation includes one of the sources that we use and their pricing up to this summer, which indicates that forest prices are still or have been rising this year. So it indicates that the forest value will increase when we close the books for the year.

Thank you. A few words about paperboard. Also here, we have been able to successively stepwise increase prices. And it's a market which has been, well, demand has been rather good the last couple of years. a bit of a change if we look back a number of years back, but it has been good. And what we have seen lately when it comes to pricing is quite obvious. After many years with hardly any change in price, we have now seen that price have ticked up quite a lot, mainly driven by cost pressure from beneath energy and fiber. In our case... We have good order books. We see in the general market that the order backlog is coming down a bit. But so far for us, it looks fine. But we are also self-sufficient in energy. Not only self-sufficient, we actually have some extra electricity to sell, which has helped the result, I guess.

Indeed, Henrik. We have been able to raise prices as Henrik mentioned. They are 6% higher this quarter than the previous quarter. We have established a higher level for paperboard, 15% higher than a year ago. Cost for chemicals and pulpwood have risen. Chemicals are 50% more expensive than a year ago and pulpwood 20% more expensive. But this has been balanced by us not using any energy. We're not buying energy from external sources. We're self-sufficient in Sweden. And we actually have excess power available to sell to the grid in the UK, which taken together has contained cost inflation. So we have the same cost situation net-net. when taking into account that we are able to sell electricity in the UK at very nice prices. And that did help the third quarter result in a good way.

Then moving on to something where we actually consume a lot of electricity. There is no excess capacity here. In paper, we have seen for quite some time that the market is in structural decline, different from segment to segment. Where we are, we are really big in book paper, for example. It's a different development, but overall, of course, we are part of the paper segment as such. Also here, it's been a lot of cost pressure from beneath, especially coming from recycled fibers and the energy situation we have in continental Europe. That has meant that prices have been pushed up, even though players in the market today in total do not run full. But given the cost situation, market prices have come up quite a lot. If you look at statistics just the last few days, you can see that recycled fiber prices are coming down a bit. But the gap between old corrugated case material, OCC, and the fibers being used to produce printing paper competing with us in this segment, the gap is bigger than ever. It's not easy to know exactly where it's going, but that gap is extremely important for us to understand as we go forward, as it is part of our cost competitiveness over continental Europe. Anders, we have worked really, really hard to find out how to handle the situation because electricity prices in Sweden have also been high.

and we have been able to have good control over the cost and also come out in i would say a really good way can you explain a bit what we have done i'm not sure i can fully explain it but i can try what we have done is that we have time we have taken production stops which of course have decreased our production volumes but we've been able to time them both in the second and third quarter in a very good manner towards times when prices have been extremely high on the market. We have taken downtime. We have also been able to adjust it between day and night time. Storage capacity has been expanded. And we have been able to do that without sacrificing customer satisfaction. The magnitude of the savings we have made on the electricity side is roughly 200 million SEK per quarter, the third and second quarter, by being able to time our production stops in this manner. Looking at the third quarter, it was another quarter with a super profit. We benefited from seasonally low costs. And we did not have any maintenance stops in the third quarter. That added to our ability to be flexible in production and time towards high electricity prices. We will have a number of maintenance stops in the fourth quarter, which will cost some money. But it will foremost limit our ability to time our production stops to when electricity prices are high. So we will not really have the same flexibility in the fourth quarter as we have had in the third and second quarter.

Thank you. Then moving on to wood products, where we have seen fantastic results the last number of quarters, actually. But things are changing, and they have changed during the third quarter, meaning that most of our customers are in, let's call it a waiting mode. Inventories are being taken down, and simply because there's a lot of question marks when it comes to the construction activity in general, and where is the building and housing, et cetera, going. In our case, well, we follow the market. And if you look at the U.S. price and the European price, right now prices are roughly on the same level when you compare net mill at home. If you look at where we are today compared to last quarter, well, we are on a slightly lower level. Exactly where this will go and where it will turn, it's impossible to say. But we do not only think about the future in terms of next week or next month. We still believe this is a very interesting area for Holmen. And sooner or later, I'm sure we will come back to a situation where long-term building in wood will be seen as something really, really good, not only for the environment, but also in general. And when all products will have to carry their true climate cost, building in wood, I am quite sure, will come out as a winner. There's also another thing to think about when it comes to how can you expand, what can you do, and it's availability of raw material. We talked about it in the beginning when we talked about the current market in the forest or the wood market, and we talked about pulp wood now, it's fierce competition. But when it comes to saw logs and where it should come from, Well, there are a number of regions where normally there is a lot of access to raw material. But take Canada. It's not given anymore, the situation in Western Canada. Russia, no need to be explained any further. Good places for sure is Sweden and Finland. And then I think we also have to add that there's a lot of activity in the US South where there is a lot of growth and probably potential also to build some or to support more building in wood in the future. Lower prices, I mentioned on this. Has it taken a... Do we see any significant change in the result? Yes, we do.

Yes, that's quite simple to see. The result is down a lot compared to the previous quarter. Prices are down a bit more than 20%. Deliveries are slow, 25% lower than the previous quarter. Normally, we have taken downtime due to vacation period, so our inventory levels have not really increased that much. They have increased somewhat, but not that much in the quarter. But of course, if you have this kind of price and delivery development, the result follows. It's still at a decent level compared to history. And the return on capital is still decent. But as Henrik mentioned, prices are still on the way down.

Yeah. Let's move on to renewable energy. We said before that we are happy to increase our activity in this area and expand. We have lately increased production of renewable energy by not the least Blåbergsliden wind farm and also Varsvik. We are also looking at the market as such with I wouldn't say some concern, but it's clearly so that we produce a lot of energy up north where prices are lower or they are locked in simply because transmission capacity to let electrons floating free in the country is simply not there fully. And we are also a company where we consume a lot of electricity in the south. So we think a lot about energy, we discuss energy, and we work extremely hard to find ways to both have a good cost position, but also to understand how to increase our own production and develop the company over time. There is not only price that determines exactly what you earn. There's also new ways of making sure that you can help the system to the grid to be stabilized. I think maybe you can mention that as well, Anders, when we take the profit first.

Of course, it's a nice profit for the third quarter. It would have been much bigger, as you understand, if we would have been located without grid limitations. But it's a good, decent pricing opportunity. The hydropower's flexibility adds nicely and we actually do see a good contribution from the wind, especially the wind farm we have close to Stockholm. If we take the next slide, this is an illustration of how much hydropower earns on top of the average electricity price in the region they are located. And it has increased quite a lot over the last 18 months. And part of it is our ability to time production and store energy For example, during Q3, we stored water as much as we could from July to September, where you had quite a big price difference. But actually, the main contributor to this increase now is that we add stability to the system. We help the grid operator to keep the frequency in the grid at 50.0 hertz. And that is quite a lot of revenues that we get from providing that service to society. added service from running hydropower is up at 170 kronas if you include both the timing and the support services as we call them 170 krona per megawatt hour up from maybe 30-40 kronas a year and a half ago.

Thank you. I've said many times that I don't think the hydropower, we haven't seen the real value of hydropower. And it will be more and more discussed, I think, in the future with more, especially wind power and also solar perhaps in the system. That's about that, about the different business areas. Just a reminder what kind of a company we are and our business model. It works absolutely fine also in times of energy crisis to have the target far away when it comes to growing houses, but also to make sure that we make the best out of everything that comes out to the forest. and being able to actually contribute to the climate change we desperately need to actually do, even though it's a bit tough at the moment. All right, then we're happy to take on any questions you have.

Ladies and gentlemen, anyone who has a question may press Start at this time. The first question comes from Harry Taitonen from Nordea.

Yes, good morning. Well, could we start from the wood market or drill on this one? There's lots of questions, of course, on a good result, but what's your best feel of the inventories and how long I mean with this sort of rate I mean and with the absence of imports from Russia and all that how much could that have sort of mean on the supply demand or the sort of speed of correction in inventories I know that it's quite speculative at this point but can you add color of this please

A year ago, we did have a correction of the inventory levels. It took four or five months for it to work its way through the supply chains. This time, it's maybe a bit different. Now, everybody wonders what will happen to the construction activity. So it's partly a destocking exercise, but it's very much a wait-and-see mood, what will happen to the construction cycle.

I think the big difference is, as Anders said, it's the outlook for the future.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Near term at least. Yes. And you mentioned about the time when construction industry will be carrying the true climate costs. But I mean, do you see, are there any kind of points, data points there that you are looking or dates that you are looking in this regard?

You have specific events like if you introduce CBAM, that is a step where you actually are forced. by legislation to take a higher cost. You have the reduction of free carbon dioxide allocation to concrete industry and steel for that. That will happen. But the bigger force is probably that the buyers of the houses put a much more stringent requirement or demand on green housing. And that is probably a fast track in favor of wood

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is final question on energy, if I may. Of course, if one calculates the average sales price based on the sort of deliveries and revenue, it doesn't give the full impact or the fair picture of the real average price change. But I mean, can you give some color on what the what the price change was and how much export, this was driven by exposure to the spot market, because obviously the majority of the sales will be hedged. So some color on that would be good. Thanks.

Did we talk? I missed the first part of your question. He's talking electricity now.

Yes. Talking electricity and exactly that understanding that you had extra revenue from Hydra and all that. Okay. Basically, if you could kind of just give color on how much the sales price increased and how much that was because of the spot market exposure.

In Hydra, we are fully spot exposed. So you can look at the graph that we have provided and you see the added benefit on top of the spot prices. and and it's freedom 90 is se2 so you that that's the market you can look at exactly okay okay thank you very much thank you the next question comes from martin melby from abt sander collier please go ahead yes good morning could you give an indication of

The price change into Q4, you have announced 10% on the carton board and Recy has newsprint and magazine prices moving up 10%. And then what do you reckon on the sawmills as well?

When it comes to paper, board and paper, yeah, there are rumors, there are discussions about new prices, but we have to wait and see what happens. Also there, I think you also have to look at how the cost is developing and also what governments are doing, subsidizing the industry, etc. It can have an impact. So it's not easy to say what will happen. We see what we have done and that we have We have had higher prices, which is earlier price increases, of course. But what will happen is difficult to say.

And we can add that normally in paperboard, it takes a very, very long time to implement a price increase. The step up in prices that we have had year over year is very unusual that it goes so swiftly. And it's based on the cost pressure we have in the whole industry. But normally it takes a long time for board price increases to filter through.

And then wood products. Even more difficult, I would say, to predict what's going to happen. I think we see right now that prices are a bit lower today than they were a couple of months ago. But where they will go, when it will turn, that we do not guide about.

Okay. On the contracted part of the paper board, how much was repriced in this quarter and what is remaining for Q4?

We don't have any contracts remaining for Q4. We don't have any repricing of long-term contracts in the fourth quarter.

Okay. And you gave this 200 million sec of flexibility. Was that both for paper and paperboard or only paper?

That's only paper that we have saved compared to a normal pattern of running the machines.

Thank you. And last question, this power sale in the UK, how much was that roughly?

We haven't given a figure on it, but it's a good number.

Thank you.

The next question comes from Robin Santa Virta from Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Yes, good morning, everybody. Thank you for taking my questions. Now, first I have a question related to Paul Wood. and perhaps sort of uh could you share your views on on the availability outlook now going into the winter and the price outlook for both you and and then when it comes to availability so maybe a bit broader in in uh scandinavia or in sweden what do you expect going into uh this winter and perhaps next spring and when will this sort of tightness peak? Is it now or is it next year? What are your views?

Can you predict exactly when the war will end? No, it's a good question, but it's a difficult question to answer. But we do see that it has quite an impact when it comes to availability right now. But to start with our own company, we have a lot of our own forest. And we also have a very good, strong organization making sure that we are well supplied. But right now, prices are ticking up a bit. And if you are in a situation where you cannot supply from, say, regionally, you have to take imports to feed your machines. Then, of course, you have a different cost. And today, especially what you see in Sweden is that short fiber birch, obviously, as that is mainly what's coming from Russia or used to come from Russia. There you see the biggest scarcity. Anything you would like to add?

No, it's a market that is still in tightening mode, I would say. It's not getting easier day by day in this market. But we are quite well supplied. And as Henrik said, our strong sourcing organization, at these kind of times, they come to its best use.

Right. You say tightening more, so then I guess we should expect a bit more pricing to a higher cost for pulpwood going forward, at least to some extent, basically not peak yet.

It's difficult to get hold of pulpwood. It's a challenge. And right now, if you increase price, you don't get more. But it's more of a challenge getting hold of the raw material.

It's also a challenge as the demand for saw logs is coming down a bit at the same time as demand for pulpboard is going up. And that is not the perfect match. So it makes it a bit more difficult.

I understand. Thank you. And then you commented about paper. and also paper board sort of order book or the intake and demand softening a bit. Could you just sort of provide some color on the magnitude of that? I guess you said you gave sort of a view of the operating rate in paper in Europe when you reported Q2. I guess you said around 75%. Is this still sort of intact or is it even weaker now? What are you seeing in paper board order intake?

We take paperboard first of all. If you look at the general statistics which is available, you can see that the order backlog is coming down a bit. If you take our niche, our company and the way we are positioned, we have still a good order book, a good order situation. And we also have, as we see it, good availabilities to, if needed, slightly change something when it comes to which segments we sell, if needed, in order to be able to run full, we believe also in the future. But remember that we are up in the right-hand corner when it comes to our business in paperboard. When it comes to paper, it's a theoretical calculation you can do and come out with a figure. What is the operating rate for the moment? That's not easy because you will most probably see that there has been closures in the market. There has been... machines that will be converted and a lot of discussions still about machines being converted so something has to happen on the supply side long term that's quite clear normally you need at least say 80 percent or a bit more to be able to run the paper machines in a good way In our case, during the last quarter, we've been able to increase our market share. We have also increased our market shares in segments where it makes sense for us. We have moved some volumes from overseas to Europe, and we have increased, especially in our most interesting segment, which is book paper. So for us, it looks okay. It looks actually quite good. At the same time, you have to remember, we discuss energy a lot. It's not of our interest to run 100% flat out. We need some flexibility in order to be able to have the chance to produce a bit more when the electricity is cheaper and actually take some downtime when it's too expensive. And we have learned a lot during the last quarters how to run it in that way. So operating rates are interesting, but for us, it's the combination of operating rates and doing the right things when it comes to electricity market that really pays off. And we will continue to work in that way.

I understand. A final question, just when I look at the paper division, I can see your sort of cost per tonne is almost the same as you have had, you know, average, say, past two years, it's up a couple of percent. We do have higher chemical costs, we do have higher transportation costs. and wood raw material as well. So what explains that your costs are not going up in the paper?

It's magic, isn't it? It is almost magic, Robin. It's our way we run the mills during the last, I would say the last, this year, at least the last two quarters, we have been very successful in taking downtime when the electricity price is very, very high. And that explains how we as a company can manage our cost base in such a good manner.

Can I ask you, have you sold some of your secured energy on the balance market?

No, but this is how we time our production and our hedges are financial. So if we don't consume in an hour where the price is very high, of course, we enjoy and benefit of our hedging, but it's...

Is that part of the earnings in the quarter?

Yes, our whole energy bill includes all the hedges we have made.

All right. Thank you very much, guys.

Thank you.

As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press star and one on your telephone. The next question comes from Linus Larsson from SEP. Please go ahead.

Thank you very much, and if I may continue on paper. We come from a pretty extreme market environment with acute paper shortage in Europe. I wonder if you can give us some more color on the current market situation and look for maintaining, or if I understood you right, even increasing prices from here We see, if I understand you right, quite a negative demand development. Natural gas prices are coming off. I mean, when you say operating rates remain low, aren't we starting to see good reasons for why paper prices should go down?

You have almost answered all the questions you asked, Linus. But you're absolutely right when it comes to the market. Yes, we see structural decline. Cost has been the main driver behind price increases of paper. It's absolutely so. And you're also right when it comes to right now we see slightly lower recycled fiber prices and gas prices for the moment is a bit lower. But remember again, if you just look at first quarter next year and predicted gas prices, we see something totally different. And also, if you look at state subsidies in Germany, for example, with a price cap, that's for 70% of the production. How will that influence? Well, it's not 100%. I think there will be a lot of changes in the market. It's very difficult to predict exactly what's going to happen. But I have a strong feeling that our position is not bad based on local wood, which we have good control over. But we have to keep to... call it magic almost, to work with our electricity prices long term, of course.

And when it comes to our business, we have very strong deliveries. We have increased a lot of our deliveries to Europe. We have taken quite a lot of market share. We have taken downtime on deliveries, not sending anything outside of Europe. So we are in a very strong position. What the market will do as a whole, it's...

It's more difficult than normal to predict, and it will be cost-driven.

Right, right. And, I mean, the magic that you speak of in the second as well as in the third quarter, and I understand it might not be repeated quite in the same way in the fourth quarter, but beyond that, in kind of a gradually normalizing environment, will you be able to operate at this... with this kind of improved excellence?

Depends on how volatile energy prices will be in the future. And it's very difficult. We don't really know how long this very volatile situation will prevail. But as long as it's volatile, we will be able to benefit from it.

And remember, it's also relative gameliness between us and continental Europe.

Absolutely, absolutely. And just, you made these remarks about the fourth quarter and the impact of the stop. Could you please quantify that? What are the direct and indirect implications on paper in the fourth quarter?

It's easy to quantify the direct effects. The maintenance stops, we have clustered them in fourth quarter, didn't have any maintenance stop in the third. It's direct cost of some 50 million sec related to the maintenance cost. The indirect effects of us not being able to time the stops, we can't know because we don't know the electricity price when we will stop. But we will not be able to time. We will be more limited in our ability to take downtime the other days of the quarter.

How many days of stoppage do you have?

It doesn't make sense to go into that detail, but it will limit our ability to take downtime when prices are high.

Maybe you should mention the cost for the Q4 stop in Paperboard as well as we talked about.

You all know about the estimated cost of the stop in Iggesund. The Paperboard meal is 180 million SEK. Great, thank you. And I can comment also that it is a higher number now for the stop in Iggesund. It's because we earn more money when we're running. It's not that we're making more expensive stops. So it's positive. Yeah. In a way. In a way, yes.

The next question comes from Oscar Lindstrom from Danske Bank. Please go ahead.

Yes. Good morning to both of you. Three questions from my side. Just the first one is, To make sure that I understood this correctly, you're not selling any of your electricity hedges in the paper division when you run production lower. Is that correct?

No, that is correct.

Okay, super good. The second question is on capital allocation. I mean, as you point out, you have very strong cash flow and a strong balance sheet. Where do you see attractive opportunities to allocate capital in the near future?

I think if you look back what we have done the last, say, five years at least, we like all our assets. We continue to invest in paper and paperboard as well. But we have invested quite a lot in expanding our wood products business and also our renewable energy. And sometimes we are limited by political decisions or veto, etc. But the direction is there to give you some kind of guidance.

Okay. And in terms of energy, we know that you're trying to grow your wind power footprint, but that takes time. On the wood product side, are the opportunities more in sort of growing your existing assets or are you missing sort of pieces of a puzzle that would make sense for you to acquire or even build greenfields?

How should we think there? We do have run five sawmills. At all of these sawmills, we have ability to grow organically. That's one of the nice features with wood products. You can stepwise grow that business. We're just right now undertaking quite a big investment program at our Iggesund sawmill. which will both enable a growth in volume, but also moving into a direction with more value-added construction products at that mill. So I think we have an ability to grow by 4-5% per year just organically by investing in our sawmills. And the key thing here is that you have to have control over the raw material. if you're going to be able to grow. Extremely important, Oskar. That's more challenging than to invest in machinery.

Yes, and that's actually a nice segue into my third question, which is on wood fiber shortage in Sweden, or tighter market, as you're highlighting. And it's my impression that, I mean, this is structural and that imports are getting more important, they will be more important in the future. I mean, if you agree with that, do you see any opportunities to increase, to make investments to increase either intra-Swedish logistics of wood? I mean, you've talked about that in the past a couple of years ago, or even sort of investing in terminals or port facilities. in order for you to be able to be more flexible in wood sourcing?

We are doing that all the time. It goes under the radar. We have implemented train systems. We actually this quarter bought a terminal up north, and we're investing in terminals at both our paper and board, all the mills, to be able to more efficiently move logs both to our mills and from our forest. in different directions. So you're on to something important, Oskar. We work quite a lot on our ability to move logs within Sweden.

And I suppose these are sort of train terminals for trucks. Are you also investing in sort of harbor facilities? Is that something that could be interesting in the future?

We have access to harbor facilities that are suitable for our purposes. What we have upped our game at is being able to move logs by rail. And then you need terminals both at the mills and out in the forest at good places. And we have invested money in recent year and years to achieve that.

All right. Thank you.

The next question comes from Colin Hartram from Jefferies. Please go ahead.

Good morning. Thanks for taking my question. Just following up on the wood market, is there any color you can give around where the higher cost producers are at the moment in the wood products market? I mean, if I think about the Canadian players are always kind of I thought about them as $500 per board foot, and we're really seeing downtime there from the commercial side. I'd love to understand where you see the higher-cost producers in maybe Central Eastern Europe, where there's also some SOAR log availability issues. Thank you.

I think you're absolutely right. You mentioned the west coast of Canada specifically, where we have seen that they tend to stop producing when prices come down too much and they have a higher cost simply. And also the problem, the basic problem, of course, is the infestation problem with beetles. And you have the trees standing now a bit too far away and you have environmental aspects, et cetera, that makes it more difficult to run sawmill operations there. I also mentioned a place where you can increase, that's the US South. And when it comes to Europe, we are trying to figure out also what will be the future sustainable harvesting level in continental Europe. We aren't really there yet, I think, to understand where it is. Most probably it's a bit lower than what we have seen in the last few years. Also that driven by bark beetle infestation.

And then just following up on effectively the pulpwood costs that we're seeing in the market, you've called out availability of pulpwood from lower harvesting of saw logs and less imports from Russia. Is there any color you can give on what would be a good example of maybe the upside case for availability as we go through into next year and a downside case? Am I right thinking that the downside case would be continued struggling sawmill market so less less harvesting and potentially a wet winter that's well a warm winter so that you're able to harvest less on your forest lands on the downside

You also have the energy situation. Right now, it's cheaper to burn wood than gas, and that comes into play short term on the S1. So it's a squeeze from a lot of angles right now. The upside is a warm winter, yeah, that could create difficulties in harvesting, but it would ease the energy situation in Europe and ease the competition a bit on pulpwood.

We have not talked so much about burning wood, but of course there's a lot of people thinking about it if you compare costs for different raw materials. And then it's not practically possible to do everywhere, but I think you will see some of it.

Thank you. Next question comes from Christian Kopper from Handelsbanken. Please go ahead.

Thanks. Good morning. Just a few follow-ups from my side. And I apologize if you have already answered it. I found other conference calls running in parallel here. But firstly, on paperwork, I think, Henrik, you mentioned that there are rumors that prices are still going up for the next quarter as well. But as I understood it, uh holman has officially raised prices for both for both solid reach board and folding box board here in the fourth quarter. In that case, it should not be rumors, right?

There's always discussions on the price lists. And as I mentioned, it is market, paper board is a slow-moving market. The prices hadn't moved for seven or eight or nine years before the rapid moves we have seen the last year. And now maybe we are in the phase where we more have a traditional discussion on the price lists.

Thanks for that. And also, I think you mentioned initially that you didn't expect that you had the same management of excess sale of electricity in the fourth quarter. Sorry if I misunderstood it. To get some clarity there, how the impact perhaps could be on that factor in the fourth quarter.

It relates, we talked paper, that we will have maintenance stops in Q4 in paper, which will take away production capacity and that limits our ability to stop when the electricity price is high in Sweden. And that's a reason that we will not have that The same kind of flexibility as we have had in Q3.

Is it possible to just mention what kind of amounts are we talking about?

No, we can't because we don't know. What we have said is that we saved 200 million SEC in Q3 and Q2 by this very flexible production strategy.

Right. And finally for me, on wood products, you're clearly seeing timber prices coming down or saw logs coming down. But have you started to see that in your own accounts on the wood product division or is that yet to come?

Log prices are not coming down yet. It's too early.

But it has come down in the market, yeah? So that should reflect wood product division going forward.

No. No, the log prices are stable, I would say. Ah, okay, okay. Okay, sorry about that. Okay, thank you very much.

And remember, you normally have inventory for a number of months. You don't see a price change that quickly. for the raw material. All right, do we have any further questions?

There are no more questions at this time.

Okay, then thank you for your interest and all good questions. I hope some answers are also clarifying and hope to see you soon again. Thank you very much. Have a nice day.