Sectra AB (publ)

Good morning and welcome to SECRA's nine-month interim report presentation with CEO Torbjörn Cronander and CFO Jessica Holmqvist. My name is Helena Pettersson, Investor Relations Officer, and I will be the moderator of the Q&A session later. You are most welcome to write your questions in the chat function. It's open from start. And with that, I hand over to you, Torbjörn.

All right. Thank you very much. So our nine months, it will begin presentation. We'll do intro and highlight by May. Then, Jessica, we talk about financial development. We talk a little about our way forward. And then we tune a session in the end. And you can also email during the presentation or via the chat function, give questions on during where we talk. We reply to them after the session. Chakra is doing business in three major areas, of which one is subdivided. We have imaging IT, which is taking care of images in hospital, mainly radiology, x-rays and MR, et cetera, but increasingly also other images. Some of the largest contracts we have received lately is all image management in the entire hospital system. That includes then pathology, and other things as well and then we have secure communications where we do that's where we our name actually originates we were doing encryption technologies before we started medical and we do very high level and advanced encryption systems these on the governmental uh military and governmental levels classified information at the secret levels and the restricted levels and that has now been begun growing much more than before as you will see later in the presentation and then we have business innovation which is our greenhouse for new ideas that doesn't really fit into one of the major cash generating businesses things that are might be profitable already but they're not big enough to motivate becoming a real business line or they are growth areas where we are not yet profitable at all. One such is genomic science. We do increasingly, we are becoming a diagnostics company. We have been an image only imaging company that went general imaging company, but the images are mainly used for diagnostics. We have concentrated on the diseases of the aging person, which will have a big underlying growth because of demographics in the entire Western world. And if oncology, cancer diseases, it's one of those areas where aging people get sick. And if you do oncology today, you also want to handle genomics, which is sequencing of the tumor and the germline DNA of the people. of the patients, and that is used for precision medicine. We got an increasing wish from our customer base, mainly in pathology, digital pathology, to also have them out with genomics IT. There were no production systems for genomics IT. And Secra is a company who are specializing in production. Hospitals must become much more industrialized than they have been. They have increasing workloads, and it's got to be run efficiently. And genomics is a rapidly increasing area which has not yet had any production IT support. And we are developing such a system together with the University of Pennsylvania in the United States. And that development is just now going to clinical tests. We don't have to do clinical trials for this, except from that type of FDA approval. But we need to do clinical tests, of course, in the live environment if the customer is happy with it. It's been a one and a half year development, and it looks very promising, and it will be integrated together with pathology and radiology for oncology diagnostics. Highlights from the quarter that passed. We have strong performance in all operating areas right now. It's very nice to see that we have very high customer satisfaction. I'll come back to that in a while. we are expensive growth phases in several areas we are doing large investments which is can be seen in our costs but there will be paybacks on these the coming years and we have rapid progress in its transition to as a service model and that also drives up upfront costs As in such a process, you get paid when people begin to use the systems, not when they decide to buy it, as we got paid before with licenses. Yet you have to take it live, you have to implement it and run the product. That drives costs, while the income is deferred to later. We see that clearly on the margins this year. And again, transforming as a delivery as a service, our net sales last year increased by 20 or the first nine months increased by 27%. That is high growth. It's demanding, but it's also very nice to have it. Our profit per share increased by 23%. Recurring revenue, which is an increasingly important thing in this world where we are moving over to deliver as a service organization, increased even more by 28%. And the churn of recurring revenue, the number of customer contracts, not the number, but the amount of money that we lose for recurring revenue every year, It's no meaning it's getting a new recurring revenue contract in if you lose it two quarters later. That is extremely low. It's 0.4%. Customers are happy and they stay with us. And of course, that is a very important aspect if you want to become a services company. Because if you lose customers, you lose that revenue. But people like us and they stay with us. uh we also won our best in class award um and best in class is an organization in the us who does customer surveys and of course they sell these reports to customers who want to buy systems in the future they do this independently of all the vendors they ask customers mainly start in the us What do you think of these other vendors you have? And then they rank all the vendors. It gives very interesting reports, both for vendors. We can learn from competition and also know where we're good and where we need to improve. It drives quality in the entire business. But it's also good for customers because they see what vendors out there that have happy customers. And of course, that increases likability. They will be happy themselves if they buy that product. and we have now won us packs in large hospital packs is picture archiving and communication systems that's our main business line mainly in reality um 11 years in a row and that makes us very very proud we're a small company in sweden who wins the most important award you can have for customer satisfaction in u.s medical i.t now there are more categories of course and we only compete in one of these categories but the one where we are in we have now had the happiest customers 11 years in a row and we have quite a good margin to the second one now the large house on the us is a main target in the us but we also have some smaller hospitals and we want that as well So we won both large and small hospitals in the US. We won in Canada, and there we have a huge grab to the second one. For the fifth year in a row, we won Northern Europe. Europe before was one region. They have now split it up in a Northern European, Southern European, and one is Dach, one is France, and one is UK. We are second in Dach and UK. improve that we like to compete um but we're number one in northern and southern europe in france we're too small and regularly to be ranked um very often we run by partnerships genomics with developing things important ships the ideal situation for development for us is that we scale we prepare to do something And then customers come with a problem to us, so we find a problem together with the customer that they have, and then we'll solve it. And genomics IT is a very good example where we actually saw many years ago that we will need to do something in genomics because it's a need in oncology and cancer care. So we're staffed up by people who buy informatics PhDs who know that. But we didn't start development until we got the customer who wanted to develop together with us. And that has now been done together with University of Pennsylvania. And as I said before, we're going to clinical tests, which means they try out this in the normal clinical setting. Not trials, it's not clinical, it's a clinical test right about now. We do also another partnership. We can partner both with vendors and customers. This is when hostels want to use AI. We have decided that our strategy is better done where we have more or less of an app store, as Apple have it, for AI than actually developing this ourselves. We have a very good offering in app store for AI for hospitals around the world, where they either can develop their own AI based on the archive. AI is really looking glass into the archive, if you look at the size. But it's also possible for vendors, AI vendors, who use us to come into the hospital. And then we take part of their revenue, but we also take care of the security vetting, etc. And we also very often do integration exchange of information between various healthcare systems. We are kind of where we are the middleman in this exchange. And the financial targets for the group are fulfilled and they are in order equity to assets ratio, which is if our systems fail, the hospital or the customer in communications is in a dire position. We've heard from customers that they consider our system to be the most important IT system of the entire hospital, which is important. um then you you don't buy that from a vendor you don't trust and financial stability is of course very important they don't want the vendor to go under but so equity assets rich is something we value it should be above 30 it's a hygiene measure um it's not what our main goal is to have this as high as possible but it should be about 14 and about 30 we are currently at 49 And the other hygiene measure, and people sometimes don't see that we see this as a hygiene measure, margin. If you have a good margin, we said that is about 15%, then it's a good thing. Then we can also invest. If we get excess margin, ways above this, we have run out of good ideas for the future. So the hygiene level of this target is 15%, we're currently at 19%. And then the real main target is to grow EBIT per share over five years. And then the target is 50%. And we are ways above that now at 132% EBIT per share growth over the five years. Some highlights in secure communications. This has been a problematic area for us for several years. We have now a completely changed market situation. We have a new management and we see considerably improved sales and earnings. This is now a growth area that is profitable to that. Very strong order intake. And we also have new offerings. We've been in the developing phase for several years, and we have now new products that we ship to customers, mainly in mobile phones, encrypted mobile phones, but also increasingly very high-speed network devices on the highest possible approval levels for seekers. As an example, we won a large customer win that we got an increased business together with the Swedish authorities for a fixed phone, not a mobile phone, but a fixed phone that follows the secret level functionality of classified information. In business innovation, we have orthopaedics IT, which is steadily growing. We have medical education, which is also steadily growing. And we have genomics IT. As I said before, genomics IT is going to clinical tests in University of Pennsylvania just about now. We are beginning to prepare to send that to wider market, but right now we want to see that we can make University of Pennsylvania happy first. We have orthopedics IT, which is mainly sold through imaging IT as special applications for orthopedics. And we have medical education, which is not the medical device. So this can be sold without approvals, but based on the same software to a large extent as Emmet. And this is so for teaching both basic medical students in medical schools, but also continued education of medical and veterinary professionals, because they now live in a world which is changing very rapidly and they need to keep up to speed. That is rapidly increasing area as well. And one example of medical education here, we've got an order of the University of Saarland uh in germany uh where we're helping out with the teaching of medical radiography students so they are the people who are going to run operate the radio devices and mrs and cities in the future and they need tools they want to understand how images look like and this is a complete cloud-based offering where we they can access this both on the big kind of big, big device, but also on the iPads and PCs at home. NGIT solution highlights cloud recurring revenue. This is the main business of Secra and our cloud recurring revenue, which is the revenue that we are doing in the cloud. So, I mean, recurring revenue is both service agreements that we always had, But the cloud recurring revenue, that is the replacement of the initial licenses I said before, that is increasing a whopping 57%. Very low recurring revenue churn, as we said before. And we have there achieved best in class because that is the part that achieves that for the 11th year in a row that I said before. And one win there that's interesting is NHS Scotland. Scotland had their own NHS. There are different national health systems for England and Scotland and Northern Ireland in the UK. And they had one purchase for PAC systems for the entire country. They do about 5 million regular exams per year, which were awarded to us. We replaced the incumbent there. and is now in product to be delivered. They are not yet in a phase where they pay. This is a pay per month or pay per usage situation, but they are not yet paying, but we have investments in getting them live. That was a large order. Then I will leave over to Jessica who will tell you about the financials.

Thank you. Good morning and welcome to the presentation of the financial development nine months into our fiscal year. We see high demand for our offerings with contracted order bookings surpassing five billion for the nine month period, of which roughly two and a half billion is guaranteed order intake. The largest contract secured in the period remains the 10 years after OneCloud with the US hospital chain, which we received in the first quarter. During the third quarter, we received several significant orders. Torbjörn spoke about the order from the agreement with NHS, National Health Services in Scotland. and also the order from the Swedish authorities for systems and solutions for secure communication. We also received an order for cloud-based enterprise imaging from a network of US hospitals and outpatient clinics. And we remind you that the size of individual orders uh create um quarterly variations in reported order numbers and our sales our sales are steadily growing up 27 to 2 billion 66 million for the nine month period and satisfied customers underlying growth and also a favorable Currency development in the nine-month period together drive the overall sales growth. Adjusting for currency impact, sales grew by 24%. And the SaaS transition is driving recurring revenue growth. And the cloud recurring revenue part increased by 56% versus the comparable period. And as Torbjörn also pointed out, happy customers keep our recurring revenue churn at a low level, currently at 0.4% on a rolling 12-month basis. In the third quarter, we increased sales by 20% to 694 million. And although we are transitioning into more predictable revenue streams, which will decrease quarterly variations over time, We can continue to expect fluctuations in growth and profit levels as long as we have both on-prem and cloud deliveries. All business segments increase sales year-over-year. Imaging IT keeps growing as we continuously add and deploy new customers and also as existing customers are increasing the use of installed solutions. Secure communications increase year over year by 43% and surpasses 300 million on a rolling 12 month basis. And this is a result of good order inflow during the year. In business innovation, we increased sales by 25% and driven by the development, both within medical education and the orthopedics area. We are growing sales in all of CETRA's geographic markets, a stable trend confirmed in this report. And we see the highest growth in the UK, the US and the Swedish markets. And the growth in the UK market stands out and is a result of successful contract additions over the past years. Denmark, Canada and Australia exhibit the highest growth in Europe and rest of the world. Operating profit rose 24% year over year to 320 million. This is a result of growing sales, favorable currency development, and also increased contribution from secure communications to the group operating profit. Our operating profit margin was at 15.5% in the period or 18.5, rolling 12. And continued investments in SAS and cloud deliveries, as well as new major contracts that initially increased costs are impacting profitability in the period and in the third quarter. In the third quarter, our operating profit declined by 14.5%. to 74 million. And I repeat that as long as we have both on-prem and cloud deliveries, we will continue to have fluctuations in profit levels between individual quarters. All business segments also increased operating profit year over year. Imaging IT, which is up 11%, carries implementation costs for new major contracts, as mentioned, whereas revenues from these contracts will grow gradually over the coming years as the customers become fully operational in the installed systems. Secure communication showed a significant uplift. significant uplift versus last year. And this is driven by the higher volume of business. Cashflow in the nine month period, cashflow from operations in the nine month period amounted to 193 million. And cash flow generation from operations was strong in the third quarter, explained by advanced invoicing of support agreements and also less outflow from settlement of current liabilities than in the comparable quarter. And at the end of the period, our cash balance amounted to 689 million. And that was the end of my part of the presentation.

Thank you, Jessica. Then I will continue with our way forward as we'll see today. We are definitely transformed into an access service company, mainly in imaging IT. That's where the impact is largely because of its size. But forensic medical education is already there. We have also orthopedics, which is more or less already there fully. And we have an increasing portion of it also in communications, though less, because they will get an order for a number of security devices. They are delivered and normally they are paid for. But communications is a smaller part of the company. And as we said before, we have an increasing recurring revenue. We have a large interest in paper usage in all product areas, as I said before. Less so in communications, but still also there for some types of devices. And then it's more or less a rental of a hardware device and that they pay for usage from it. If you are going to become a successful recurring revenue company, you need low churn. And we have a very low churn below 1%. Revenue and profit growth will temporarily be changed smaller while we flip those initial large staples of initial income from a licensee to becoming revenue over the years instead. But after four, five, six years, of course, it would be grossly profitable compared to having initial sales and just service income after that. We are also seeing that we have an increasing interest from existing customers who paid a license fee earlier to become a software as a service customer. And if they do that, we give them an initial discount for four years about to kind of pay them back for the license that they own. But we gradually take them up to full payment. Our new products is very often only developed for a software as a service environment. And so even existing customers are converting over to this. And that, of course, will be a growth immediately when they change, because they will pay from day one more than the service contract. After five years, they pay as much as any separate customer. um but it's we need to take the investments up front so we got some really huge orders here during the year as you know and we have told you and formula about them but they are now an implementation phase then we need to invest and we don't get paid as we did before up front we get paid when they begin to use it which means that we have as jessica also said large upfront cost that we have to take. Long-term, the financial effects from this will be strongly positive, and it's one of the few things where both customers and vendors feel good about it. Most of us like to pay this. If we have a feeling we can stop paying if it doesn't work. And of course, the vendors get more money long-term. In medical IT, these are the growth areas I spoke a little about in the beginning. With the demographics of the world today, the diseases of the aging person is the most important to invest in. It's said that about half of the cost of healthcare in a Western country is done for the last year of living. So it's a huge kind of weight on cost for the aging people. That's where society has to invest. And when society has to invest with the growth area, disregarding if it's a low tide or high tide in the economy as a general, society has to invest it. And those five are neurodegenerative disease, Alzheimer, costing very much, Parkinson's, MS, cardiovascular disease, chronic heart failure, et cetera, cancer diseases, musculoskeletal diseases, and vision and these areas where we are working a lot in delivering very good solutions and based on medical imaging historically but now with genomics we are also increasing diagnostic capability for cancer outside of pure imaging it's very closely related imaging it goes together with pathology but it is not images that we are dealing with And this is new, as I said before. And the vision for medical imaging is collecting all images related to diagnostic data in one single system for the hospitals. This is better care for patients, but it's also lower cost for the hospitals. Having many IT systems, I know of a customer in the US that have 1,000, that is not a huge hospital, they have 1,000 IT systems. This is a huge cost driver, not only for buying that, but just having competence to maintain them. And they want to reduce that. There's a huge consolidation going on now in imaging and in IT in general in the US market. It's also security risk, which also drives hospitals to having fewer systems because every single system is a potential threat vector for getting bad stuff into their IT systems. So it's reduced complexity, but also higher security if you do fewer systems. And we are the only vendor today that can do all the medical images in one single IT system. There is no other vendor who can do this in one system. There are other vendors that will sell it. But they cannot have it in one system, then they sell parallel system and then you're back. Then you just get one invoice, but with several systems still. So we're still the only one who can do all of this in one system. So we have radiology pathology and cancer care going together. We saw that eight years ago when we digitized the Linköping University Hospital here in Sweden. Now, Sweden is by far the world leader in digital pathology, and we have that in the same system. And now we're adding also genomics into that. The only vendor with all of these in one system, and they're built for production. We are not mainly a research company. We are a company who will deliver industrial production systems for healthcare, because that is what healthcare needs to go through in order to cope with explosion in the cost we see. So from research IT tools to production. And as I said before, we're now doing that transition with genomics IT. And the hospitals have been increasingly doing sequencing and DNA sequencing for cancer especially. But they've done that on research systems. We are now introducing one of the first real production systems for genomics IT, an area with huge growth. So genomics is estimated to grow about 90% per year for the foreseeable future, while imaging is about 10, 9 times. In cybersecurity, we live in a new digital reality. There is an increasing international tension that we are aware of, all of us. We also see increasing cybercrime, not the least against healthcare, because healthcare pays out. a ransomware attack because otherwise patients die while many companies simply swallow the grievances about it and do not pay out. They are not going to pay the customers or the criminals, but hospitals have to pay. And that means that healthcare is a very strong target and we see synergies there from our security knowledge into medical. We are very well positioned in security and we have a very strong brand name in that area, which is required. That's another area where brand is crucially important. So expanding, attackers are getting smarter. An example is that these new large language models, GPTs, as you're probably all aware of, they can also be used on the attacker side. They can build an attack software in a fraction of the time it took before when a vulnerability was discovered. The crooks are also using much more advanced psychology. They do phishing emails that look very similar to reality. And the threats are expanding a lot. It's a larger and larger impact as well of these because society is more and more digital. Yeah, that demands more and more countermeasures and thus investments from society. And one of those investments is, of course, of encrypted channels and encrypted traffic. So why should you invest in sector and go forward? We are positioning markets that are by external factors forced to grow. It's nice to be in a growth market, but it's even nicer to be in a growth market that has to grow even in a low tide in society. Both healthcare and cybersecurity will grow, it has to grow. And that, of course, is a nice market to be in. We have a high customer satisfaction and a very strong brand, where brand is crucial. If our IT systems stop, the hospitals come to a grinding halt. If our IT security systems do not function, bad things will happen to the people who talk over that phone. It requires a very strong brand that makes huge barriers of entry. for three guys in the garage type of operations. It's a very difficult market to enter, but when you're in it, of course, it's a good situation. We have a rapidly increasing recurring revenue and very low churn, which provides good prospects for the long term. Yet we have very exciting self-financed prospects for future growth in our business innovation. All of these can become major. Not all of them will be. We have had several there. We have shut down a few of them historically. We have sold one of them. But all of them have potential. And if that comes to fruition or not, we will see. But it's an interesting thing. And in Sektra, all management owns shares. We like that to be a fact. So you know we have our kind of mind where our work is. And the upcoming financial events going forward is our annual meeting in September and the year-end report in June. And you're all, of course, most welcome to attend the annual general meeting if you have owned shares. And that will be held in shipping. Also, these meetings are important for us. We want them to be productive for you as viewers, the same way we think about our product with customers. So if you have any suggestions, anything you want us to change or modify in these, please send an email to info.investor.com and suggest how we can make them better. Any questions, if you follow online, please use the chat function and Helena will read the questions for you.

Yes, thank you Torbjörn and Jessica. We have a number of questions and I will start with the ones that arrived before the meeting from ABG and Nicola Kalanoski. The first question is given the recently strong performance in the secure communication segment, Could you help us understand how the general business momentum has changed in the secure communication segment in the last year?

That is mainly due to the tensions in Europe, I would say. It's also a common completion of our products that we've been developing a long time. But the increasing tensions and the awareness of cybersecurity warfare, which is happening in Ukraine, has driven demand along.

The guaranteed order bookings of nearly 1.76 billion was very strong. Could you please help us unpack that figure in terms of which orders have had the largest contribution?

Well, the guaranteed order intake of 1.7 billion in the quarter is spread over Scotland, the two no-name US contracts, and also the order intake in secure communications.

We note that you continue to sell the traditional license model in the US. Could you please help us understand what types of US clients prefer Sektra One rather than Sektra One Cloud? And what might be the practical reasons for this preference?

It's like all transitions are a new kind of paradigm. Not everyone jumps as well at once. When people got mobile phones, some people had them earlier and some people got them very late. And that might be because of the policies of the IT department of the hospital. It might also be because of the external network. If you're going to work with a public cloud solution, you need a very high-speed network into the servers of the cloud operators. And if you don't have that, you need to have them on-prem. So we will see, but they are getting fewer and fewer public or on-prem installations also going forward. But there are few.

And the final question here is, could you please provide us with some color on what markets in Europe face a large replacement cycle of legacy packs?

It's very difficult to say. It's very different for different markets. There's two reasons why people change packs. One is that the developer has not kept up development with the new technologies. Images from regular equipment, for instance, get larger and larger and bigger and bigger data. If they haven't built the IT system to cope with these very large images, the system will become slow. So that's one reason why people exchange them. Another one is consolidation. And in areas of countries where we have huge consolidation customers, they merge us into larger entities. That will drive needs to have one IT systems for all the groups together. And some of the old systems will not cope with that environment. If you look into where this is happening, it has happened a lot in the UK. All the hospitals were owned by the NHS, of course, or not all, but almost all in England. But they have consolidated into consortiums, which buy IT together, and then the legacy systems have not been able to cope with that. UK is almost through it, but we see other countries. There's a lot of countries in Europe which still have a very, very diversified and fragmented health care market. I will not give examples, but there are large companies in Europe where this is the case.

Then I will move on to questions from Christopher Liljeberg at Carnegie. Could you explain which contracts are driving the strong sales growth in the UK last two quarters?

Several contracts are contributing, but Scotland is of course one.

Are costs for implementing new contracts mainly on the personnel and external cost line or also impact on gross margin?

Yes, mainly on the personnel cost line at this point in time.

When could we expect cost to peak for implementing large recently signed contracts?

I can't take that. We don't like it to peak because if we continue to grow, the cost will increase. About the transition into software service that we peak now over the next or within two years. But you know, cost for implementation. We like that to increase because that drives future business.

Part of ordering tech this quarter to be delivered within next 12 months. Is that mainly related to secure communications?

No, it's in the on the medical side is the majority.

OK, then I will move over to questions that we have received in the chat function. And the first one is just to be clear regarding the recurring revenue within imaging IT solutions in K3. Does that mean you have 98 million recurring revenue from software as a service and around 307 million recurring revenue from service slash consulting sales?

I well, yes, if you if if we buy software as a service mean the part that is cloud based stats, cloud recurring revenue is the recurring revenue from cloud delivered projects.

Could you please talk a bit about the split between software as a service and cloud revenues and service consulting revenue from the larger orders in the quarter? Could you repeat that, please? The question is if you could talk a bit about the split between SaaS slash cloud revenues and service slash consulting revenue from the larger orders in the quarter.

I mean, if we sell sector one cloud or cloud-based systems, it will end up in the cloud recurring revenue stream of revenues. I don't know if I fully understand that question.

No, I think it was more about the split in the order intake, if I interpret the question.

Most of the current order intake is for future recurring revenue.

And the next question is from David Mignon at Stifel. And the first question is the growth in average number of employees has been slowing down since the first quarter and the number of employees has been growing at a slower pace than revenue for a while now. Are you happy with the size of the team or are there areas in which you expect to hire significantly more in the coming quarters?

That is a figure we can't reveal. But in general, we had to invest earlier on with people. It takes time to get people up to speed. We got some massively large order that we had to invest to be able to implement. You saw that a little bit earlier this year.

And the next question is about the other side of the costs. On the contrary, your other external costs have been growing fast this year. What's the biggest driver behind this?

I would say it's divided in many things. One, of course, is cloud costs. We pay now our cloud providers. They need kind of the platform cost is increasing.

uh we have a good margin above that but it's still cost that we have to do and we also have consultants in some areas and we have hardware that some customers still buy from us and the third question from david is could you give us more details on the attachment rate you're seeing with existing customers for your other ologies beside radiology and breast imaging

Quite good. When people who is a radiology customer wants to have a new pathology system, for instance, of course, we are in pole position. It would be much cheaper buying that from us because they already have all the basic infrastructure. They can start paying just for the pathology exams they do. So that attachment rate is quite high.

Is this contributing to your growth or is growth still materially skewed towards radiology?

It's materially largely in radiology, but the other ologies are growing faster.

Then I'll just check so we haven't received any more questions by email. and that is not and that is the case so I have a final question then I think if no one else online have a question can you comment on the large quarterly variation can you give a bit more flavor on that well there's two things driving what we see now in in the kind of model change one is of course moving licenses to recurring revenue the other one is that the

the consolidation in the hostels is increasing. So the orders get much bigger because there's now many hostels or even countries buying one system, as we saw in Scotland. That means the deal size gets bigger, but things are also spreading out. Now, the deal size drives, of course, if one of those are on-prem or license-based, that's a huge order. And when that is recognized, it makes a huge impact. so even though we you could think that it will decrease with increasing revenue we will keep the large variations mainly because the order size of also the other ones are increasing a lot so we will continue and and we normally say that you have to look at sector on a rolling 12 basis because you cannot predict the next quarter from one quarter because it goes up and down depending on these are realized

Okay, I think that was the final question.

All right, then we thank you very much and look forward to hear or see you again in June 5th. Thank you.