Sectra AB (publ)

Good morning and welcome to Sectra's financial report presentation with CEO Torbjörn Cronander and CFO Jessica Holmqvist. My name is Helena Pettersson, investor relations officer, and I will be the moderator of the Q&A session. The chat function is open from start and if you write questions, management will answer them after their presentations. And with that, over to you Torbjörn.

All right, thank you very much. Welcome to this presentation. And I will commence the presentation now. We will discuss interim highlights that will be done by me, the financial development, my Jessica. Then I will discuss a little our way forward, and then we have the Q&A session. Please, as Helena said, ask via the chat function or email if you don't have a chat. That's how we adapted afterwards. So our business operations sector is imaging IT, which is the biggest part. We handle all images in hospitals. I'll come back to that later. And this is the largest operation, but also the one that is most affected by the big change from a license-based upfront model of sales to a recurring revenue model, where almost all customers in the future will pay for usage instead. And then we have secure communications to the right. That is actually our regional business sector, secure transmission sector. And that is encryption, that is selling very high-level encryption systems and communication systems to national authorities and defense systems around the world, or around Europe, obviously. We're not selling outside of Europe and NATO. And then we have business innovation, which is really our greenhouse for new ideas, kind of entrepreneurial ventures that we pursue. And the newest one there is Genomics IT, and I'll come back to that a little bit later. Highlights from the quarter, we are building a strong and future-proof business. We have very high customer satisfaction, which is very satisfying. All real business is built on high customer satisfaction. And this is the core sector, how we operate, how we try to run or build our culture in the company. Then we have also seen a very large order intake over the quarter. The biggest one is, of course, the entire province of Quebec in Canada, which is more or less a country. They do equivalents about the size of Sweden in one single order, our largest order, et cetera, today. Rapid progress in transition to asset service model. mainly in imaging IT where we're changing the upfront license sales to a service. This change is going even faster than we ourselves anticipated. More or less all business in the UK, the US and Canada is now as a service model and increasingly also in Europe. This is a big hit short term and short-term meaning over several years where we lose the upfront license model we had before. But long-term, it will be good for shareholders as well as customers. And of course, when you do such a big transition, you have large investments. If you get a big order like the one in Quebec, there is a lot of cost upfront that you don't get paid for until the customer begins to pay after a year or so of installation fees. We are transforming as a service model, as I said, and then we measure the recurring revenue growth. And cloud recurring revenue is exactly that positional model. That is when we take an earlier license sale that we got paid for upfront, and we move this over a long period of time instead. And that has grown 36%. We have had large growth there for a long time. But now the figures are on a level where 36% begins to make a real impact. And that's over six months. Then recurring revenue as a whole includes cloud recurring revenue. That includes the old systems, the old installation-based service contracts, which of course has grown less rapidly. But as it includes the cloud recurring revenue, that has also grown substantially. And then we have the churn, which is super important in a cloud or in a service model. And when you get paid for usage, it takes a lot of effort to get people in to this complex. And then you don't want to lose customers and start paying. Our churn is very low, about 0.5%. Main churn is in education, actually, which is a small business part, but that we see. We see the main churn, and that's people who have bought a terminal, a big table, historically, and then they get initially a usage contract. But if they don't prolong that, which in some countries people do all the time, then we lose that customer. We have even lower figure on that if you take imaging IT. Happy customers is something we believe in. We think that's the only way to grow long-term for any healthy and sustainable business. We have contract order bookings up 39%. It's a tremendous growth, and that's mainly the Canadian Quebec order. But we also grow in other areas as well. Net sales increased by 8%, despite that we're moving the upfront license sales to long-term. We still grow in the top line. And profit-pay share was down this quarter. Now, I should remind you, as I said at the end of the last Q1 presentation, that the quarterly variation separates large It's very, very difficult to predict on a quarterly basis. You have to look at 12 months running if you're going to see a trend, etc. And this year, this quarter, some business was moved into Q1 and some perhaps comes later. But it's, again, very large variation between quarters. The financial targets for the group are fulfilled. We have the priority one, which is our stability equity assets ratio. At the end of the period, we provide systems that are crucial for our customers. They cannot fail. Hospitals stop if our system stops. And if the military or a country are to trust us with the most important secrets, we cannot be financially unstable. so having a good equity asset which is important our target is about 30 we are at 48 despite that we actually paid out uh dividends or actually a redemption program uh this uh oh then the second priority is profitability there's a hygiene measure etc margin as such is not our main If we increase, that's a one-time increase, but we should at least do healthy business. So we have a profit margin of 15% that we shouldn't go below. We are at 16% despite all the large investments we do right now for the cloud business. And growth of profits, and that is our main target, but it's priority number three, the two hygiene measures of before, that should grow more than 50% per share over a five-year period. And we are currently more than double that, 111%. In secure communications, it's interesting. These were, for many years, a little of a problem child with us. It didn't grow, and we had not enough margins This has now changed both internally because we have a very good culture there now and new management, but we also have a world around us because it's a war in Europe and more insecure. This business is driven by that growth in the market as well. Now the sector is fast growing area. Order intake includes our encrypted telephones on secret level and also increasingly network encryption. That is, when you want to encrypt between two buildings, for instance, or into two different cities, you want very high-level encryption there at very high speeds, and that is an area where we're very strong. We had also patent settlement there that will have positive impact, not this reporting quarter, but the next reporting quarter. And coming back to that sector has an extensive patent portfolio. We had many patents in different areas. One of those is a US patent within mobile VPN, virtual private network solution that would usually have license to use corporations as part of a one time setting. It's been a discussion between us and them of if they infringe or not. And we decided together that they can license our patent instead. And that resulted for us in a net impact in Q3 that will lead to almost 100 million kronors as a one-time profit increase in communications and thus the entire concept. Business innovation highlights orthopedics IT. We have good profitable growth. Musculoskeletal disease is increasing and prosthesis or implants is also growing a lot. We do products that intend to get the right prosthesis into the right person. So preoperative planning. We increasingly also do postoperative analysis, which is growing healthily. And that is the evaluation of a prosthesis afterwards, that if it's stuck or not, if it's not stuck, it should be re-operated. But if it's stuck, even if you have pain, it should not be re-operated. And revision of a prosthesis is very dangerous and very costly. So we can prevent some of those by actually seeing that the prosthesis is stable as it should be. Medical education, there we have a little backlash this quarter because people are buying less of the hardware, which is the large tables. That's part of the general trend. But also the recurring revenue in that area is increasing rapidly. So that part, which is the most important part, is growing steadily. Genomics IT is the new area that we have been live with since in May. in the University of Pennsylvania in the U.S. We have a large interest in the market, but for those who have ever read Jeffrey Bohr's book Crossing Casper, we are exactly in that casper phase now. People are very interested. We saw that in an exhibition last week. But, of course, they want to see how it goes for the first customer first. That is, however, progressing very well. So we believe in that era going forward as a very interesting era to come. But things take time in medicine, that is as it should be. In research, that's not a business area, but it's a cost unit. We have lots of focus on various aspects of AI in medicine and clinical decision making, which is important. Malister for Genomics IT. As I said, we are in collaboration with the University of Pennsylvania handling genomic data. Genomic sequences is increasing a lot all over the world, but it has been done on research systems and Excel. Now, this doesn't work when you have an increase in production, then you need production systems and the world has been not had such production systems in genomics because it's been so seldomly done. Now this is increasing and we are experts of workflow optimization in medicine, etc. It fits perfectly well into what we do. large synergies with existing portfolio medical diagnostics not only in oncology it also actually is increasingly interesting for other parts because a mutation might be not cancerogenic but it might be something that affects probability of disease for instance in cardiology and then genomics has an impact also in that area. Live since May at Penn University of Pennsylvania. As I said before, our customers are happy with it. They're giving us good references. And a large initial interest from other institutions, but of course, medicine is slow, so this will take years before it really begins to grow. But we're well-processioned for the future there. Image and IT solutions are the biggest area. We have this ongoing transformation to software as a service that really affects our financing, especially short-term financing right now. We have cloud recurring revenue going up at 36%. And now at the level we are, it really begins to make an impact where we continue that growth. And we have very large order intake and high interest from the market. And as an example, we can give the Quebec order in Canada where they have had many systems over the province before more than 150 sites in Quebec they do about 12 million exams per year and that's about the same amount as Sweden does as a whole country and they will now go into one single consolary system for the entire Quebec public healthcare system it will replace a multitude of old IT systems And they can facilitate actually cross-reading, helping each other out, and having centralized service instead. This is a very large order. It contains radiology, breast imaging, orthopedics, not today pathology and other things we also could do. And that's, of course, up to the customer if they want to give that to us in the future as well. There will probably be another order for that. But who gets that is, of course, not yet decided. We just came back last week from our largest trade show of the year, that's Radiology Society of North America. That's every year in Chicago, the week after Thanksgiving. We had a large booth and we had a record interest in our offerings. We had more visitors, substantially more than any previous year, despite that we had a full much extended booth we had it was more or less full the entire show and we had a lot of people coming and seeing what we're doing and we can note that a lot of proof and appreciation of their separate position as a thought leader in medical imaging diagnostics now people come to us even customers who are have acquired other systems and they want to see what we do because we do all of these different things in one single systems Then I will lead over to Jessica who will continue the financial report.

Thank you. Good morning and welcome to our presentation. Our six month report shows record high order intake, solid recurring revenue growth and strong cash flow. Whereas the overall sales growth is more moderate and the operating profit is lower than in the comparable period. I will walk you through some key financial metrics, starting off with order intake. With the Quebec order signed during the period, our order intake, contracted order intake levels reached new all-time high levels, amounting to 4.8 billion in the period, of which close to 4.6 billion was guaranteed order intake. And we point out the fact that orders of this size create variations in the quarterly order bookings, as can be seen in this graph. In addition to the Quebec order, we also received sector one cloud orders during the second quarter, both in the US and the UK. And we received orders for digital pathology in, for example, France and Belgium. Order bookings in secure communications remain stable during the period with various orders for Tiger S and network encryptors. And sorry for my voice today, which is not functioning 100%. I will do my best. Sales in the six month period amounted to 1,477,000,000, an increase of 8% year on year. And we had some currency impact on sales figures. Adjusting for that sales would have grown by 9%. And recurring revenue keeps growing, up 17% year on year. And the part that is cloud-based increased by 36%. So this shows, again, the progress we're making in the transition to cloud-based SaaS. We have non-recurring revenues that are lower than in the comparable quarter. Non-recurring revenues are typically revenues from license sales and migration. And as we have an increasing share of new business generated, or an increasing share of new business from cloud contracts, this is the result of that. We continue our growth journey with loyal customers, noting that the recurring revenue churn remained very limited at 0.5%, rolling 12. Imaging IT reported sales growth of 5% year on year. This growth rate is more moderate than what we have seen in recent periods, and growth is dampened both by currency and by the transition to the new business model with revenues spread over time. Growth in cloud recurring revenue remained high, 36%, and this is the KPI that we focus on during the transition. Secure communications grew sales by 42% year on year to 198 million. This is volume driven and also includes more product deliveries than we had in the comparable period. In business innovation, as Torbjörn said, we have seen a slowdown in the sales. hardware in medical education but we have rapid growth in recurring rate revenue this could however not compensate fully year on year sales increased year on year in our geographic markets except in the u.s and rest of world the u.s decline is currency driven and we also note that This is the market where we have the fastest transition to cloud, with all new customer sales being service sales. In the rest of world markets, the decline is partly currency driven. It also reflects lower non-recurring revenues outside our main markets. We know the highest growth in absolute figures in Sweden fueled by the positive development in secure communications. Our operating profit declined 15% year on year to 209 million, and the operating profit margin was weakened. The transition to the new business model again is impacting as we spread revenues and earnings over time. We also have initial costs relating to the new extensive customer contracts that we have signed. That is a factor that impacted profit negatively in the period. And quarterly variations are expected to gradually decrease long term, but we are not there yet. Imaging IT reported 22% lower operating profit at a margin of 15%. And here we have the strategic investment in becoming a service provider that continues to impact profitability as we report revenues and earnings over time. And we also have the ongoing preparations for deliveries of our large customer orders secured in the past year. And none of the larger customer contracts are yet in full production. Secure communications. increased the operating profit by almost 200%. This is a major significant uplift and I repeat it's volume. And also we have more product deliveries than the comparable period. Operations generated a cash flow of 119 million in the period. And versus the comparable period, we have less tied up capital in current receivables as a result of timing effects in customer projects. And we closed the reporting period with 626 million in cash balance after settlement of the share redemption program during the second quarter. That was all for me.

All right, thank you, Jessica. We have a saying in the sector that success in business is quite easy. We just need to live and act the oldest rule of human history. Do unto others as you want them to do unto you. You can find that in all religions, and you should perhaps practice a little more business as well. This is what we try to get our people to do. And this has resulted in that we have very high customer satisfaction. We are best in class last year. So this is actually the award given in the early 2024. We were best in US hostels, large hostels. We also were best in US small hostels, which is not our key market, but we have the aptitude and ability to make even also those happy. canada very large margin to the second one for the fifth year on the road northern europe and europe was split up in several regions uh last year so that has the only year it's been awarded has been to us and southern europe and in mid-europe and the uk were number two um One thing that I've shown before, but I think it's very important, it's also been very beneficial in sales during the year. Claas also does other things. They not only measure numbers, they ask people specific questions. And one of those is, would you buy again for large hospitals in the US? And 98% of our customers in the US and large institutions will buy from us again. We are so much higher than anyone else that we are the only one above the average. The second one is at 80% and then we have 74, 72, 68. And of course, if we are in a new sale and we want to sell into new accounts, this is the thing we show them because we are allowed to show it by class and it's very important information. And this is a quote, I like quotes, and this is from Edwards Deming, who was a consultant for the Japanese government when they improved the quality. In the 60s, profiting business comes from repeat customers, customers that boast about your product or service and bring friends with them. This is exactly what we try to live by and that we have been very successful at. In medical IT, we are transforming as a service company, as I said, We are the only vendor who can do all of the different imaging in one single contract, in one single model. We can do gradual imaging. Of course, the largest part is the gradual defects. Breast imaging is a version of that for mammography. But we do digital pathology, cardiology, orthopedic planning, ophthalmology. Enterprise capture, which is normal, back on our cover images, and all the other parts here you see in one single contractor, one single solution. This simplifies a lot for customers. And now we also added genomics into that. We see that we are the major enterprise imaging vendor now. Customers want to consolidate. They want to have less vendors if they can. which reduces complexity and it's good for them in general. We can say that if our competitors have Word or Excel or PowerPoint, we have all of it in one single solution. We're the only company who can actually do that and deliver and have proven in deliveries and doing that right now. Also driving the market in medical is the demographics of the Western world. People do not have enough kids. Populations are getting older and older and sicker and sicker. But the workforce, because there are few young people, are getting fewer and fewer. And everyone in society cannot work in healthcare. It doesn't work. Therefore, society has to do something about especially the older people's diseases, which is neurodegenerative disease, cardiovascular disease, cancer disease, musculoskeletal disease and vision. And we do image-related diagnostics on these fields especially. That's where we concentrate because that's where the market has to buy. This is no way out. This has to improve because we do not have people. Efficiency has to go up. Workflow has to improve. And efficient workflow is becoming paramount in healthcare. More and more people, more and more doctors are doing more and more. The workload for radiologists is increasing extremely much, which means they need efficient tools not to burn out, and the burnout risk is still very high. So efficient workflows and a good working environment is very important. And we have all good workflow in all of these areas, cardiology, pathology, imaging. Radiology is the biggest. Cardiology and pathology should not be forgotten. They are also big areas where production needs to be high. Genomics, we have our new systems and ophthalmology that we thought about three or four years ago during the pandemic. We also have a system where we can have, and ophthalmology is the images of the eye. that used to be quite simple 20 years ago, but it's getting increasingly complex. You can have a lot of diagnostic work done through imaging of the eye. And we are the only one who can do all of that in one stable system. And consolidating all imaging-related diagnostic data into one system enables for the customers better care for patients because you get a more overall efficient workflow. You don't need to have so many staff in IT. You can hire more nurses and doctors instead. and efficient workflows as i said lower costs reduce complexity we know i know customers who had more than a thousand it systems in one hospital that is extremely complex and very expensive to have expertise in all thousand systems we can reduce that by all moving all imaging into one single system and now including genomics as well And also, of course, improve cyber security. Cyber security is a very important concern for hostels today because hostels is just the crosshairs of organized cybercrime. And of course, if a thousand systems, you have a thousand points of attack for an external organization of crooks that want to attack you. The less systems you have, the more secure you are. And brilliant workflows made for you is our tagline in these areas, and that is what we run at workshops, etc. In the cybersecurity, our fastest growing area right now, we're living in new digital reality. We have increasing international attention to cybercrime, and that drives growth. We are very well positioned and we have a very strong brand name. As in medicine, we have our most important and biggest asset is not on the balance sheet. That is our trust from our customers and our brand name. We have also an extensive research and patents portfolio, as you have seen from the settlement that you will see in Q3. Threats are expanding, attacks are getting smarter and smarter. Also, attackers have AI today, which means that they can make an attack software right the virus much faster than before. It's larger and larger impact on the intrusions into cybersecurity, and it demands more and more countermeasures. Thus, society and companies must invest in cybersecurity scenario, even if there's recession in the society. Society must invest, and that is similar to what we do in medicine. The diseases of the elderly must be handled, even if society has a recession. These investments have to go on. And that comes very close to our philosophy of shareholders. You start with a rational strategy in a growth market, and ideally, it's a market that has to grow, come hell or high water, as they say. That is a market that will grow even if the overall economy does not grow. Then, if you have happy customers, happy employees are required to have happy customers. You cannot achieve happy customers without happy employees. And they're too expensive when you're worth it. And then have perseverance and reasonable cost control. Then shareholders will be happy. But it comes in that order. And with us, you will see variations of results and so on. If we need that, we have happy customers. We are long-term, and you need to evaluate sector long-term if you want to understand us, if you want to participate in our journey to better times. So why should an investor choose Secra? We are positioned in markets that are, by external factors, forced to grow. Both cybersecurity and medicine has to grow, as I said before. We have high customer satisfaction and a very, very strong brand in areas where brand is absolutely crucial. Rapidly increasing recurring revenue and very low churn. This means we sit on the integrator. which is a nice place to be. Yet very exciting self-financed prospects for future growth areas in business innovation, but also internally in the business areas. The majority of them are already profitable. We have a few that are on the way to becoming profitable. And management-owned shares and incentive programs are long-term, etc. We have four or five years programs, which they employees participate in and have done very well in up to date and that concludes our presentation our uh coming financial events and and and general assembly is march 14th 14th we have a nine month report march 27 we have a capital market state for the medical side of sector we are pointing out that the capital market days for the security side will be an other date somewhere in the future because it's such a different business. So it's more meaningful to have two different days for it. June 5, we have the year-end report, and September 9, we'll have our annual general meeting in the shipping suite. Your feedback is important. These meetings are not for us. They are meant for you. If you have improvements, suggestions, or anything you want in these presentations, please send that in the email to info.investor.sector.com. We will listen and try to improve it. And then we open up for questions.

Thank you, Torbjörn. I will start with some questions I got on email before the presentation here, and it's from Nicola Kalanoski at ABG. And the first question is around competition in the US. Could you please provide some color on how your competitive position for US cloud deals for large hospital groups has evolved over the last year?

It has increased. clearly, especially in the US.

And the next question is, is there a difference in client perception and willingness to purchase digital pathology in the US compared to Europe?

The US was later, because of the FDA, was quite slow in approving digital pathology, which meant Europe had a head start, especially Northern Europe, and Northern Europe especially Sweden. Sweden is clearly leading in the world in percentage of being digital in pathology, but the US, as very often in that market, when they go, they go big. And since a few years, the US pathology market is growing rapidly as well.

And there's also a follow-up question on digital pathology in the US. Have you received more interest for digital pathology after the FDA clearance for DICOM images in digital pathology?

I think it has meant that a few customers who really want to be certain that it's an open system and they can use many scanners with our system has It's now finally realized that this market is opening up. Now, FJ is still not yet approving a general approval for a scanner and a PACS system by itself. So our approval right now from FJ is only with one vendor for the scanners. But we think that will change and become more similar like it is in Brazil.

And then the last question from Nicola Kalinowski is, are there any differences in how long it takes to implement all the different modules for sector one cloud clients? For example, if a client purchases radiology initially, will it be easier to implement all the other modules after a client is fully onboarded with radiology?

Absolutely. So, I mean, a very large part of this is the first one. So you set up all the serverware in mind, the databases, all integrations to other IT systems in the hostels, you set up the archives. If you have Radiology, it's much easier to add with Pathology or the other way around. It's the first one includes the server side of the installation.

And then we move on to questions from Jakob Lemke at SCB. What contributed to the strong order intake other than the Quebec contract? And I think you have commented on this already, Jessica, but you may repeat it.

Yeah, and we had we received several sector one cloud contracts I mentioned in the US and the UK, and we also received digital pathology orders in France and Belgium. And then stable ordering flow in secure communications.

And what is the reason for the limited quarter on quarter growth in imaging IT?

the mix of contracts we in the comparable period we had we had more contracts where we could do upfront revenue recognition and now we have a larger share that we spread over time and the next question is can you talk about the initiatives you are doing to increase rate of implementation for cloud contracts

We're doing a lot of effort there and we're becoming better, but it's still a large product when you have 140 hostels, for instance, that is going to use one system. You need to make sure the networks are fast enough. You need to set up with a cloud provider. In this case, in Quebec, it's Microsoft, which you normally use. You need to have a very fast line into Microsoft server centers. There's a lot of work there that needs to be done, and that takes time, but we are getting faster and faster in doing it. And especially on the client side, we do more and more digital teaching and less and less actually human touch to these hostels. You cannot install 140 hostels in the way we did before. You have to do it much more efficiently.

Okay. And the last question from Jakob Lemke on the theme Same theme, status update on implementation for the large US contract you won last year.

They are in process. Only one of them actually have one or a couple of hospitals online yet. But as I said, it takes a lot of preparation. If you want to do a project fast, you should be slow in the beginning. And that's the thing I try to tell everyone. If you want to do it slow, you should run too fast in the beginning. This will come, and we will begin to see it mainly during the next year.

And then I will move on to questions in the chat function. And if you who are following online have further questions, please write them now. And I will start with a question from Christopher Lilleberg at Carnegie. Can you please comment on the reason for recurring revenues not growing sequentially versus K1 in imaging IT and provide some details on the timing of rolling out the new large contract, not yet generating so much to sales?

We have variations also in recurring revenue and how fast they come. And as for the contract, that is what I said before, these huge contracts, when there's hundreds of hospitals, You have to be careful and you have to be very precautious in the beginning for them to really work and deliver long-term healthy profits. It takes time in the beginning. A big difference in delivering one hostel or two or three hostels and delivering 100.

And the next question is also from Kristoffer Liljeberg and it regards operating costs. Based on what you have reported so far this year, it seems growth in operating costs have slowed down. Could we expect this trend to continue in the second half of this fiscal year and into next fiscal year?

That is the prediction we normally do. However, one cost will increase, and that is the cost that we pay to the cloud providers. We take the entire contract. Of course, the cost we provide to cloud providers will increase, but that's a part of the business, so then our income has increased much more.

And yet another two additional questions from Christopher. Could you please update on the competitive situation in the US and if you were also bidding for Trinity Health that Visage announced recently?

Competitive situation is quite all right. According to CLAS, external source, we're winning about double as much as Visage is. uh and we think that trend continues we have won other contracts they won currently and and that's how the market economy works you win some you lose some we have other wins that are as large or bigger and the next question is do you see a potential for more large contracts in canada There are more provinces in Canada. I would not predict the future on that one. We'll see what happens. And of course, Canada is looking very much on Quebec. We need to do a good job there, and perhaps we can get more contracts in Canada. We do have other contracts in Canada as well, but Quebec is by far the largest one. Again, note that we are number one in class. We are the highest customer satisfaction of any vendor in the US, and the margin in Canada is bigger than we have in other markets.

And the next question comes from Thomas Nilsson at Nordea Markets. The transition to the new business model clearly impacted K2 and will likely continue to do so until the major customer contracts with recurring revenue currently in the startup phase are fully operational. Could you provide clarity on the timing of this?

As I said, we will see some of them coming live during the next fiscal year. Some, of course, comes all the time, but we will see increasing regrowth of that revenue during the next fiscal year and even more so after that.

OK, and then we have a question from David Vignon at Stifel. Good morning. Could you give some details on the market share that you have reached in the US? How many exams are you handling each year there? And what would it look like if your customer had already reached planned volumes?

Well, the interesting thing about our market first that is currently about the market dynamics, we grow, of course, with sales as everyone does. Now, our underlying business is also growing. So each customer is doing more and more examinations and we get paid for per examination, which means our growth is both driven by our current customer's growth. which increases how much they pay, but also with the new orders. Our market share in the US is somewhere just below 10%, we think. It's very difficult to measure this. And the number of exams were handled, I don't know, by heart, but it's quite a lot.

And that was the final question in the chat function.

right then we thank you very much for listening and look forward to see you in march again or at the capital market day and maybe we can send them a christmas holiday as usual we have etc a christmas greeting to you all so you can get this to work and merry christmas to you all from us