Surgical Science Sweden AB (publ)

Now I will hand over to the speakers, CEO Tom Englund and CFO Anna Ahlberg. Please go ahead.

Welcome to this earnings call for Surgical Science for Q3 2025. My name is Tom Englund, CEO, and with me today I have our CFO Anna Ahlberg. Q3 was a clear step in the right direction for Surgical Science. Total sales of 264 million SEK was an all time high for the company. And this result was despite the negative impact on sales from currencies of five percentage points. The group grew by 14% compared to the same quarter last year and by 19% adjusted for currency effects. Adjusted EBIT amounted to 33 million SEK, and was negatively impacted by restructuring costs of 2 million. Adjusted for these costs, profitability was 13%. Since around six months back, we have initiated a set of activities to improve our profitability, primarily focused on our hardware and software simulator business, that is not the robotics or development business. And we're now happy to see that these activities are beginning to have an effect, and we expect further improvements in the quarters to come. Speaking about educational products, this business unit stabilized during the quarter from the weak revenue of the previous quarter. We saw a growth of 8% compared to the same quarter in 2024 and 26% compared to the previous quarter. We saw good demand and customer activity in several regions during the quarter, with Europe showing the strongest growth at 46%. The entire ultrasound simulation segment, which became a strategic focus area in connection with the acquisition of intelligent ultrasound, also developed positively with high customer demand in all markets except for the UK. In the UK, we continue to see problems and sluggishness in the allocation of funds from the National Health Service, NHS, which is a key source of funding for our products. And this had a strong negative impact on sales in this market. The Americas grew by 9%, which was lower than our expectations and as in previous quarters due to extended sales cycles in a tougher budgetary climate for hospitals. Sales in the US for comparable units, that is when we exclude intelligent ultrasound, decreased. Our sales team in the US report signs that the market is becoming more active, and this is also visible in the number of quotes we send out and how much leads we generate inbound and at external events. Still, for quarter three, sales in the US was a disappointment. During the quarter, we saw two prominent associations launch training programs that include certification based on simulators from surgical science. Together with the American Society for Gastrointestinal Endoscopy, ASGE, we launched a plan for training and certification in diagnostic endoscopy, or so-called EUS curriculum, which is based on our GI mentor simulator. For the first time ever, trainees can earn an ASGE certificate of completion directly through the simulator, marking a major step towards standardization of certification. And this is important since it elevates simulation from a training tool to a recognized certification platform. In addition, Our robotics mentor, Robotic Surgery Simulator, now includes the GISEA curriculum from the European Academy of Gynecology Surgery's recognized framework for training in robotic surgery. EAGS and Surgical Science have together developed the robotic psychomotor skills curriculum and test, where all exercises have been validated and benchmarked scientifically. These two collaborations are important steps in our work to make simulation a widely used and recognized tool in both the training, but also the certification of physicians and healthcare personnel. The result for surgical science will be an increased overall demand for our products required for certifications, and also that our customers will find it easier to obtain budgetary approval for these products. Very exciting developments. Switching over to industry OEM. Industry OEM performed well during the quarter with sales increasing by 20%. Development revenue increased by 131% compared with the same quarter in 2024. And the business area saw a strong inflow of new development projects, both in medical device simulation and robotics. In the medical device simulation area, we secured what is potentially the largest single deal in the company's history in this segment during the quarter for one of the world's largest medical device companies. The contract spans over four years. The first phase will be a development project, including sales of a first batch of simulators for the customer's training and sales activities. And then further simulators will be ordered in the coming years. We initiated the project as well as recognized development revenue from the project during the quarter. Simulation is rapidly becoming a critical tool for these customers in their sales, marketing and customer trading activities. In addition to this, we signed another large order with the same customer during the quarter, which proves our ability to sell multiple broad projects to the same customer and cements our preferred supplier status with the customer. the robotics product area our robotics express has been very well received in the market robotics express is a simulator for surgeons to become proficient in robotic surgery the demand for training robotic surgery is very very strong and is expected to increase further in the coming years as hospitals increasingly switch to this type of minimally invasive surgery our ability to offer a solution to this training challenge faced both by hospitals as well as by the robotics companies will enable more surgeons to be trained more effectively in this field. Due to the length of the sales cycles, we expect significant revenue impact from Robotics Express to start during quarter one of 2026. License revenue for the third quarter amounted to 66 million SEK, which is a slight increase compared with the same period in the preceding year, despite the stronger Swedish krona. Intuitive, CerticaSign's biggest customer, reported 19% procedural growth for the DaVinci system in the third quarter, and the installed base grew by 13%, primarily driven by the new DaVinci 5 platform. In the US, we continue to see a decline in simulation subscribers on older generation DaVinci systems due to them being replaced with a new platform. For the second quarter in a row, our revenue from new robotic manufacturers remained at a low level. However, at the beginning of the fourth quarter of 2025, we're once again seeing stronger sales to these other robotic manufacturers. Overall, we note that several of our customers in robotic surgery are approaching commercial launches, which is expected to lead to an increase in license revenue in the coming quarters and years. Now, regarding profitability, our gross margin amounted to 65%, which is down from the 69% last year. One of the reasons for the decline is the very strong simulator sales in relation to license revenue, which thus accounted for a lower share of total sales than in the corresponding period last year. Other reasons are currency effects and also the inclusion of intelligent ultrasound into the financial with a different margin and loss making at the time of acquisition than surgical science. As I stated in the beginning, for several quarters now, we have been pursuing a number of initiatives to improve profitability within educational products. Our goal is to significantly improve profitability in this area, which will in turn impact group profitability very positively. We saw during the quarter that these initiatives started to have an effect, despite the headwinds that we see from currency effects. And over the coming quarters and in 2026, I expect continued positive results thanks to this plan.

So continuing to look at the numbers a bit more in detail for the quarter, then we had sales of 264 million. That was up 14%. And 19 million then came from intelligent ultrasound or IU. And all IU sales are attributable to the educational products business area. And when we look at product groups, it's within the ultrasound product group. In local currencies then, as Tom mentioned, sales was up 19%. And starting from last quarter, we now see a negative effect from currencies on our overall sales with our approximately 80% of revenues in US dollars. We are doing some things to try and mitigate this, except from raising prices. We also now quote more countries in euros instead of in US dollars, for example. Out of Q2, we had an unusually high backlog or order stock for simulators, where the difference between ingoing and outgoing order stock was approximately 30 million sec. And this was relatively evenly distributed between the two business areas. Most of these orders were shipped during the third quarter, and there is no significant difference between the opening and closing order book, excluding the site and then after the third quarter. Looking at the business areas, the split in revenues was 53% for educational products and 47% for industry OEM, where educational products was up 8%. However, down 6% if we exclude IU revenues. And as Tom said, UK sales here are weak and well below expectations. The Asia region declined by 5% compared with the same quarter last year. Sales in China, they were stronger than in both the first and second quarters, but in line with the comparison period, while sales declined in India if we look at the comparison period. Sales in Europe then remained strong despite weak sales in the UK and increased by 46%, where we saw for the quarter strong sales in countries such as the Czech Republic, Poland and Portugal. And then the North and South America region increased by 9% compared with the corresponding quarter last year. However, then sales decreased for comparable units, and this is mainly attributable to the US. In the quarter, Brazil was a country that delivered strong sales. And yes, as we've said all through the year, then the US market has been tough a lot of leads and discussions but the deals have taken longer to to close and for the quarter we had costs for tariffs customs duties approximately two million sec these we have for this quarter been able to pass on to the customers industry then up 20%, we saw all revenue streams increasing and we also saw very high activity level. And as Tom mentioned, several good deals that potentially can be very large for us. For the first nine months of the year then, this means that sales were 724 million, an increase of 14% or 20% in local currencies. And IU is included with 59 million SEK. And that means that sales increased by 5% for comparable units. Educational products up 17% or down one if we exclude IU. And again, Europe is the region that continues to show the strongest development and has done so throughout the year. Industry OEM up 12% for the year to date, where licensed revenues are up 7%. And if we then move on to our revenue streams and continue with licensed revenues, they were then 25% of total revenues for the quarter compared to 28% last year. um as as mentioned many times before and as tom talked about this is slumpy for new entrance many of our customers are still in early phase and they purchase their licenses in batches and then can that can then cause a timing effect between when the license is purchased and when it's used um so for the quarter as also in q2 this part of the license sales was unusually low. However, at the start of Q4, we have seen better sales to these players. And then when it comes to Intuitive, we had the same effect as in Q2 that we saw a decline when it comes to renewals of subscriptions for SimNow with the older generations. However, for this quarter, this was offset by higher revenues from DV5 if we compare to Q2. Simulator sales as a whole was up 14% compared to Q3 2024. And this was the second strongest quarter ever for this revenue stream. Both areas increased, EADU however, as we saw, not if we exclude the IU sales, but Indu was really strong. And also here we've said before that this is more lumpy than for sales within EADU since it's usually tied to larger projects where development is also involved. And development revenues were up a lot also for this quarter. partly due to the project we have for a Ministry of Defense in the Southeast Asian country, but not at all entirely. Development revenues were good also for other customers. The Southeast Asian project, it's for 18 months and 52 million. 0.9 million US was recognized in Q3 and we estimate approximately the same amount for Q4 on this order. And we continue to see stable service revenues. Moving on to costs and the EBIT margin for this quarter, as Tom mentioned, our gross margin was 65% versus 69% in Q3 last year. And we had several factors influencing the fact that the margin was lower. License revenues then being a lower share of total sales and also currency effects. They had a negative impact of approximately 1.5 percentage points where The lower US dollar exchange rate has not had an impact on costs yet. Part of our costs is of course also in US dollars, but these inputs were purchased previously and then at a higher exchange rate. The proportion of direct sales also impacts the gross margin, and it was lower within educational products and then mainly, that is mainly than the US. And we talked about intelligent ultrasound and that they have a lower gross margin on those products. On the positive side, we see that our price increases that we've done are starting to show effect. Regarding OPEX, sales costs were 21% of sales and for the quarter that includes some restructuring costs, approximately 1.5 million SEK. That is then attributable to further reductions in the sales force in the US as a consequence of the acquisition of IU. Admin costs were 8% of sales and during the quarter we completed the merge of former then former I use us subsidiary with one of surgical sciences us subsidiaries and that resulted in some slight slightly higher legal costs and tax consultancy fees. R&D costs 21% of sales and we were we activated seven million sec a bit lower than the same period last year and as you know the costs on this line vary depending on how much development revenue there is for the quarter as salaries for the portion of development department staff who have worked on these projects that generate development revenue they are transferred to cost of goods sold and and that means that more was transferred also in this quarter since development revenues were high And going back to IU, when we acquired IU, we said that we estimated rationalizations and cost savings to between 1.5 and 2 million pounds sterling on an annual basis. And as of Q3 and on an annual basis, We have made cost savings of approximately 2.5 million pounds in relation to the cost structure that existed in the company at the time of the takeover. And that is done mainly in the form of reduced costs related to the company's previous stock market listing and staff reductions, mainly in respect of sales personnel. For the quarter, cost savings of approximately 6 million SEK are included. And as mentioned before, restructuring costs of 1.5 related to further personnel reductions are also included. Still, because of lower sales than expected, primarily in the UK, as discussed before for IU, the operating result for IU was a loss of 11 million. So, of course, when we look at the comparison numbers after that, we have made an acquisition in February of this year of IU within the ultrasound sector. That was a loss-making company and we have made taken several measures done as discussed on the cost side, still making loss, but we believe a lot in the ultrasound sector and we see a lot of positive signs from this sector. It was also an acquisition that we were able to make at 0.5 times sales. Other operating income and costs that mainly consists of costs for the company's option programs, as well as the revaluation of operating assets and liabilities in foreign currencies. And for the quarter, we had a negative impact on results of 7.2 million attributable to this revaluation. It was slightly negative also in the corresponding period in 2024, but as you might remember, there was a large negative due to this in Q2. So following this, our operating profit for the third quarter, excluding the restructuring costs, was 27 million, or an operating margin of 11%. Organization wise, we were 328 people going out of the quarter, one person more than going out of Q2. With the IU acquisition, we added 48 people and then we had a number of redundancies. We continue to employ above all software developers. However, we are also working intensely with efficiency improving projects and employ with caution and cost consciousness. And you can see the split between our sites down to the right. Adjusted EBIT, exclusive of amortizations and surplus values related to acquisitions. That was for the quarter 13% compared to 22 last year. And for the first nine months, it was 10% compared to 20 last year. FinanceNet. As most of you know, we have no loan financing, so net financial items for the quarter was primarily interest income on bank deposits. It was also revaluation of internal loan liabilities to subsidiaries and impacted by IFRS 16. Then our tax expense for the quarter was 10 million and net profit was 20. That means that the effective tax rate was high. The largest reason for this is that there's a larger portion of loss-making entities within the group, including Intelligent Ultrasound this year, and that then increases the relative effects of tax costs. In addition to that, we had some items that were in relation to 2024 fiscal year in the US and some minimum taxes that were also paid. And as mentioned, the net result for the quarter was 20 million SEK. Looking at the cash flow, negative 4 million from operating activities, and from working capital negative of 45 million that is primarily because of higher accounts receivables and that is primarily that is due to higher sales we do not see any increased risk in our accounts receivable stock inventories decreased slightly Cash flow from investing activities and financing activities is nothing to mention here for the quarter. And that meant that cash for the end of the period, September 30th, ended at 597 million SEK.

Tom. Thank you, Anna. So to summarize, we see continued rapid development of our company in a dynamic market where we can see positive signals, both in our external work with our customers and in our internal efforts to create a stronger, more efficient and profitable company. The strategic review that began before the summer is in its final stages. The strategy, which will lay the foundation for Certicus Science's continued growth journey, will be presented during our Capital Markets Day on December 8th. If you're interested in attending in person or digitally, please sign up. Information on how you can do this can be found on our website in the Investors section. Our new strategy seeks to continue growing the company, both in segments where surgical science has traditionally been strong, but also in new adjacent segments with low penetration of simulation. In these areas, we have identified that our technology and expertise can create significant customer value. And the result from these efforts will be a company with several more revenue streams and a company which addresses a significantly larger market than today. And we're looking forward to presenting our strategy in more detail within short. And with that, I would like to open the floor for questions.

If you wish to ask a question, please dial pound key five on your telephone keypad. To enter the queue, if you wish to withdraw your question, please dial pound key six on your telephone keypad. The next question comes from Simon Larson from Danske Bank. Please go ahead.

Yes. Hi, Tom. Hi, Anna. Filling in for Victor today. So, Tom, you mentioned several regulatory announcements were made during Q3 in the robotics space. Should we expect any impact from these approvals already here in Q4, thinking license sales specifically? I know you stated that it will impact in the coming quarters and years, but specifically Q4, or what's the timeline here?

Hello. Yes, we will see an impact from these other robotics customers also already in quarter four of this year. Yes. This is also what we stated in the CEO letter in the quarterly report. Okay, great.

My second question then relates to cost. Given that you are tracking quite a bit below your adjusted EBIT margin target for next year, cost of course increased quite a bit also here in Q3. If you could give any more color on how you expect to develop cost here from this point, also in the context of you saying that you're implementing cost reduction initiatives? Should we expect cost maybe even to decline sequentially from this point? Or how should we think about modeling cost ahead?

I mean, first of all, profitability is one of the key focus areas for us as a company right now. And as you said, and as I said as well earlier, we are doing a lot of different activities to improve both the gross margin and ensure that we grow costs cautiously and look for efficiencies in a cost base. So there is a lot of activities such as price increases that Anna mentioned, different types of policies in place to ensure that we can have as high revenue as possible in our educational products business unit, as well as different COGS reduction activities that we're doing that will drive and improve gross margin on educational products. And then when it comes to the acquisition that we did with Intelligent Ultrasound, as Anna mentioned, that has had a significant impact on the profitability. But as Anna also said, we believe a lot in the ultrasound simulation space and we are a much, much stronger company now with the added product portfolio and added competence from Intelligent Ultrasound than we were before the acquisition. And we have had added a loss-making company to the financials of surgical science. And then we have taken out approximately 2.5 million pounds sterling then on an annualized basis. The idea is then to continue to grow the ultrasound business up with good gross margins. And then that this will then generate profitability also, both as a standalone and together with surgical science and of course. So it's a strong focus for us is the conclusion.

Yeah, that's very clear. I was told to limit myself to the two questions, so I get back in line. Thanks so much.

Thank you.

The next question comes from Ulrik Trattner from DNB Carnegie. Please go ahead.

Thank you very much. And hi, Tom and Anna. You provided some granularity on intuitive sales in Q2 and its contribution for the quarter. And I was wondering if you could provide some more color on this in Q3 as well as we have seen that the DV5 is increasingly its portion of the instruments sold for intuitive as well as higher of replacement sales as they report it. So just trying to also get some type of sense on when the replacement is starting to become a positive rather than a hampering factor short term.

Hi Ulrik, nice to meet you. First of all, I think that it's important when you look at the robotics market to have this long term perspective and to just first, I want to emphasize how inherently attractive this market is because we see such a strong uptake, generally speaking, for robotic surgery. And you can see it in the numbers on procedural growth, for example, communicated by Intuitive. And you can also see it in the strong news from other players that are launching or are planning to launch new robotic systems in the market. So I think it's an inherently attractive market segment to be in. Having said so, it will take some time until you see the full potential in this market, as many of the new entrants have been delayed in their efforts to come out with products in the market. But it's coming slowly. And then to your question about intuitive and the dv5 it's great to see first of all that dv5 seems to be such a resounding success for intuitive right and now also they have managed to get to a production level where they don't have a where they can where they can produce a lot of systems which means that their their volumes are ramping up as you could see in the quarter three report of intuitive And that, of course, will drive the demand for training on these devices. And then, as you rightly said, Ulrik, and what we also pointed out in the Quarter 2 report, there is this kind of churn effect that we see now in the migration between old devices, DV4s or DaVinci X and XI, and the new DaVinci 5 platforms, as some of the customers actually replace the systems when they are buying a new DV5. But it's not all customers who are replacing or trading in the systems. Some customers are also adding the DV5 to their fleet of robots, and the DV4 will still stay. And of those customers, some of them will continue to use simulation on the old system, and some will terminate it because they feel that the old system can be used clinically instead as a training tool. So you have many different kind of scenarios. And then to your question, sorry for the lengthy background, to your question, how will this all play out in kind of the switch in the growth between DV5 and DV4? It's very difficult for us to actually judge that because of these different scenarios or different ways that this can play out. But we feel happy about the fact that DB5 is successful in the market. And we see this kind of strong growth in installed base in general. And you also might remember that DB4s, the older generation systems will still also be sold. uh in some markets alongside the db5 so there could also be a simulation uh subscription sales towards all those new units that are going in so that's the dynamics that we have to deal with and and and that affect kind of the the simulation sales and the subscription renewals as well for surgical science okay great um and just a follow-up on that with

Medtronic now really is real close on approaching FDA approval for virology indication and hernia indication, as well as clinical progress on the gynecology indications. So they look to have products on the market in the U.S. by early 26. Did you believe the lumpiness in your dynamic of reporting sales for licenses will gradually come down or will that increase? How should we view that?

Yeah, I think it's a good question. And over time, it will gradually come down, the lumpiness, of course, since more players are coming out with robots and those players are customers of ours, buying licenses from ours. So yes, but I mean, you can sort of look at that, I think, from, you know, within the next one or two quarters, but rather long term, that's like within the next one to two years. So yes, then the lumpiness will come down.

Okay, great. And my second question would relate to Intelligent Ultrasound. And obviously, sales have been below your expectation, and thus EBIT contribution has been well below. And looking at Q3, I guess you didn't expect it to start of the year to have a contribution of around 11 million in the quarter. Just how should we look at this short term, given the disruption in the NHS, the disruption in the US? Is it going to be loss-making for the foreseeable future? And will you be able to meet your financial guidance low end on the margins if intelligent ultrasound continues to be loss-making?

Yeah. Yeah, as I said earlier, we believe a lot in intelligent ultrasound and we believe a lot in the ultrasound simulation market. And we feel super happy about the contribution of intelligent ultrasound's product portfolio into the product portfolio of surgical science. And we can already now see in the number of quotes and in the sales in many regions of the world that it's going in the right direction. NHS is a problem for our sales in the UK, both for intelligent ultrasound, but also generally for surgical science. And the budgetary problems that we have in the UK have led to dismal sales for both statistical science and intelligent ultrasound. So that's kind of one of the most important contributing factors to why sales is low. We actually see quite decent uptick in sales in other parts of the world of the ultrasound portfolio. So we have a good product portfolio and it will become even better going forward, which means that we can work towards becoming the world leader in ultrasound simulation. Then what we have done is, as I mentioned, we have taken out costs to make sure that we can minimize the losses as much as possible. But we definitely want to sell ourselves out of this situation. We think that we have a lot of assets both in the team in Intelligent Ultrasound as well as in the products. So that's the plan. It's going slower, primarily driven by NHS, but we feel that we are acting as swiftly and as forcefully as we can with both costs and revenue. You want to add anything, Anna? No, that's fine.

hope that answers the clarification yeah just a clarification there would you still be able to expect to reach your your lower end margin guidance for 26 if intelligent ultrasound remains loss making i i don't want to comment on that right now uh sorry uh anna do you wanna

No, I mean, as you said, Tom, we are working and we are also remember we when we do our acquisitions, we do full integration. So pretty quickly it becomes sort of. It's an overall question and of course increasing sales as you said Tom both for intelligent ultrasound products and also for the rest of the product line. And then we are taking many different measures to improve profitability. This is one of them definitely but there are others as well.

I think that you can think about it that we are creating a much stronger company through the acquisition of Intelligent Ultrasound. And long term, this will be a very, very good addition to the surgical science family. And despite the disappointing short term sales results, we have not changed our positive view on the long-term attractiveness of the ultrasound simulation market and the positive contribution of intelligent ultrasound into surgical science.

Okay. Great. Thank you, Tom and Anna. I'll get back into the queue.

The next question comes from Christian Lee from Pareto Securities. Please go ahead.

Thank you. Good morning, Tom and Anna. I have two questions, please. I'm curious about what you describe as potentially the largest single deal in the company's history within medical device simulation. Could you please elaborate on the potential deal size here?

No, we can't, unfortunately. Hi, Christian. No, unfortunately, we can't elaborate due to commitments towards the customer. We can't elaborate on the deal size here. We have to let it be at potentially the largest deal. But what I can say, which is similar to what I've said previous quarters, is that within industry and within the medical device companies now, we see simulation rapidly becoming a critical tool for med device companies to present and showcase their products towards prospective customers as well as existing customers and users, because it allows them to do these presentations or trainings in a safe and very efficient manner. And that's why we see kind of this increasing customer activity in the inflow of development projects within industry in the quarter. And this was a trend that went on just now and not in this quarter only, but also in the previous quarters. Right. And I think this big order now is a testament to this, that we are becoming more of like a preferred supplier with some of these med device companies when it comes to providing simulation in a broad array of product areas for them. You know, these are big companies and they have divisions and these divisions have subdivisions. And we are now actively going deeper and deeper into these companies. And as they are also big companies, this means that when they adopt a specific technology like simulation for their sales force and marketing efforts, for example, that means that the demand of a simulator can be quite high. And that's hence then the big deal size that this becomes. So it's a development revenue and it's an initial purchase of some simulators. And then gradually, as this product rolls out, globally, we see a very big potential for high volumes towards these customers and for this specific product that we're speaking about.

Okay, great. Thank you very much. My second question, similar to sales declined by almost 9% year-on-year if we adjust for the delayed deliveries push from the second quarter. Beyond the negative currency effects, was this mainly due to challenging comparables? And how should we think about outlook given that you will face even tougher comparables in the fourth quarter?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, as you know, we don't We don't give guidance, but we, as Tom said also, we see a lot of activity. We see that some markets, it takes longer time. We see it's been tough in the UK. We talked about the US, which is, and we see some very strong markets like the Europe, like in Europe, several markets there. So we continue and it's also a bit different, of course, between the different product lines there where we see, we talked about ultrasound, we have other product lines that we see a lot of activity within. So yeah, we don't, we see a lot of activities and still a lot of positives for the EDU product business area, even though some markets are a bit tougher.

I mean, we feel that the toughness primarily comes from these shortages of budgets, budget inavailability, and primarily in the US, as we have said, right? There is a lot of things that you can do anyway to try and maximize sales, given a tougher market climate. You can work on different sales activities, you can work on different marketing activities and so on. And we are doing all of those and rest assured that we're having an extremely high pace out there in the market. And we have a good feeling and there's a very high amount of quotes going out in customer dialogues that we see. The other thing that you can do, of course, is to launch new products because new products usually can get budgets faster in a challenging market climate. So that's also why we're quite excited about the volume ramp up now of Robotics Express, because Robotics Express is such a product that can be added on top of the simulator sales that we already see. uh and and that can those then of course be a revenue contributor and that product is targeted both towards educational products as well as for industry we are so so we have high hopes for this product line once we once we start uh selling it more actively here and i just mentioned very briefly but but price increases is of course something that we

continue to work with and we see that that has a positive effect and that we can actually take out higher prices and also has to do with how we package our products and hardware in relation to software, etc. So these are all things where we work very actively. When we talk about robotics... Sorry, Christian, did you have another question?

I don't remember if you already had two or... I had two already, so I got back to the queue. Thank you very much.

Okay, thanks, because we also had a written question around Robotics Express now that we're talking about it.

Yeah. What is the average length of the sales cycle for the Robotics Express product line, and what is the company doing to shorten it so potential customers can better understand the benefits of integrating said products to improve their medical staff's curriculums? Great question. So the sales cycle length depends a little bit on the type of customer that we engage with. We have both educational product customers or hospitals and sim centers that are buying the Robotics Express, and then we have the med device companies. So when we look at the hospitals and sim centers, you could you could say that in general the sales average sales cycle for a hospital and it seems that there is anything between six months to two years, depending on region and depending on type of institution. And this is applicable both for our existing simulators as well as for robotics simulators. What we are doing with Robotics Express, though, is that we're marketing it at a more attractive price point because we believe that this is a product that could be sold in volume because we see a very high demand for training for surgical robotics surgeons. This means with a more attractive price point, that means also that sales cycle could come down and be shorter than what they are for other simulators. And then when it comes to industry OEM, customers, for example, robotic surgery companies that are buying the Robotics Express platform and putting their simulation software onto it and then using it in their training efforts. there of course the sales cycle will be longer because they would need to perhaps do some hardware modifications as well as software development for the platform so that could be perhaps you know around a year or something like that from the initial discussion until we engage with the customer but of course once we have come over that first hurdle then it will be more like of a a transactional sale since they have standardized on our platform, so to say.

Let's see, did we have any more questions signed up? I don't think so. We have some written questions.

I think we talked about the license revenue. There are some questions on the license revenue side. I think we talked about those. There is one also when we will transition to a fully subscription-based revenue model when that will be completed. And that is the case for 2025, that it is fully subscription-based. for intuitive. I'm not sure if the question is related to that or to all, but for intuitive, yes, it is. Regarding pricing, there's a question, DV5 over DV4, we cannot and never comment on prices for our customers, what we've said. is that prices have been set for a period with the MOU with the intuitive where the prices will go down over time.

Yeah, and then we have a question regarding forward visibility we don't comment on.

We again also invite you all to the Capital Markets Day on December 8th. So hope to see you all there.

But I think with that.

If there's no more questions.

No, with that I think we.

Yeah. But thank you all for your attendance and for the interest in our company. And yeah, have a great day.

Thank you. Bye bye.