SmartCentres Real Estate Investment Trust

Good day, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Smart Center's REIT Q4 2024 conference call. I would like to introduce Mr. Peter Slam. Please go ahead.

Thank you, operator, and good afternoon, and welcome to our fourth quarter and full year 2024 results call. I'm Peter Slam, Chief Financial Officer. I'm joined on today's call by Mitch Goldhar, Smart Center's Executive Chair and CEO, and by Rudy Gobin, our Executive Vice President, Portfolio Management and Investments.

We will

begin today's call with some comments from Mitch. Rudy will then provide operational highlights, and I will review our financial results. We will then be pleased to take your questions. Just before I turn the call over to Mitch, I would like to refer you specifically to the cautionary language about forward-looking information which can be found at the front of our MD&A materials. This also applies to comments that any of the speakers make this afternoon. Mitch, over to you.

Thank you, Peter. Good afternoon, and welcome, everyone. The retail sector in Canada continues to power along with strong fundamentals in the basics. Food, general merchandise, fashion, and household value. Pharmacy, general value, dollar stores. If Smart Centers has historically dominated this slice that is value and convenience on weekly needs, it is now supercharged in that regard. Rental growth was up .8% on lease extensions, excluding anchors and .6% overall. Cash collections are above 99%, and then same property NOI continued to deliver with .8% growth, all driving occupancy to a new five-year high of 98.7%. It is one thing to say, it is one thing for us to say, Smart Centers has real estate of strategic appeal. With the retail that serves value to Canadians. But there's another thing for the retailers themselves to say. Some, world's largest, with its .7% occupancy across the Smart Centers portfolio. For the quarter, we executed 192,000 square feet of deals for vacant space. And for the year, we executed 253,000 square feet of deals for new retail construction. With Walmart, as with all of our great national brands, our tenant partners relationships continue to deepen the same store expansions. And new stores. In that respect, I am proud to say that after the year end, that we executed a new Walmart lease for our South Oakville Center location. This represents just one of the opportunities we are working on with Walmart and with others. To more conveniently serve markets that have steadily, even rapidly grown in population over the last 10 years, but have not grown proportionally or at all in retail. Walmart will take possession of the South Oakville store later this month and will open this new store in late summer. In addition, I'm also pleased to announce our new Costco lease deal at Winston Churchill 401 in Mississauga. In the vacant X Rhona store. And while we are satisfied with what the contracted rents will contribute financially in both locations, it is their non-financial contributions that are the most valuable. The enormous amount of additional traffic, the enormous amount of additional shopping traffic to these two large centers will ultimately spread much additional economic activity across each center filling vacancies, improving renewal rates, providing further expansion opportunities. In addition, we have a number of new build locations underway or to begin construction shortly with names such as Canadian Tire, Winners, Homesets, LCBO, Sobeys, Loblaws, Dollarama, Golf Town, Banks and more. This higher level of construction activity has not been seen for some time. And we believe it will continue to spread a wide array of tenants in our smart centers locations. As we work closely with our tenants, every detail matters. And it is this attention to detail that enhances our tenants and customers experience, which by year end has resulted in another metric attaining a five plus year milestone, that is extending over 91% of the 5.4 million square feet of tenant maturities in 2024. Rudy will have some further color in a minute, but here are a few more operational highlights and some worthy of repeating. Same property NOI, including anchors for the three months ending December is up 6% and including anchors 3.8. Our Millway apartment leasing has reached a 95% occupancy level, well ahead of budget from a rental and time perspective. Cash collections remain strong at over 99% again, reflection of the quality of our income, the strength of our tenants. We expect this momentum to carry on through the year and into 2026. Built on the top of this strong retail market, we continue to build significant mixed use permissions with over 59 million square feet already zoned. And as you know, on lands we already own. We will continue to be careful and strategic in executing the project, that is when market conditions permit and with appropriate financing in place. You can read about many of our future mixed use development potentials in our MDNA, but here are a few hunts. Our development teams have continued to secure residential and other mixed use permissions across the country and we're successful achieving 1.8 million square feet of permissions in Q4, bringing the year to a total of 9.8 million square feet. These and our other 50 million square feet of residential and mixed use zoning achieved allow us to immediately launch when market conditions permit.

In the meantime,

we will continue adding these higher and better uses to our properties, improving NAB, flexibility and readiness for execution. And someday somebody other than us may care. Site works and excavation were completed in construction in advancing for our 36 story artwork project here in the VMC comprising of 320 sold out condominium units. Continued. To our smart living brand, the Millway, our 458 unit apartment rental project, which was completed late last year was 95% leased at quarter end and above planned rental rates. Construction of our Vaughan Northwest town homes with our partners progressing well with 11 more closings taking place in Q4, bringing the total to 96% of the 120 pre sold units now closed. In Leesa, construction is continuing for a 224,000 square foot retail center comprising primarily of a 200,000 square foot flagship Canadian tire store. Opening remains on schedule for early 2026. Our self storage portfolio comprises 11 operating units, which now accounts for over 1.4 million square feet at 100%, with three remaining projects under construction, which on completion will bring the total to 1.9 million square feet. This portfolio continues to excel. We intend to continue expansion as we are doing with our two new locations, one in the Val East, Jason to our shopping center, any other in Victoria, BC, just off the downtown core. Overall, the business continues to expand and strengthen. And we continue doing so with a strong balance sheet. While carefully managing our overall debt and the amount of floating rate debt, we have increased our unencumbered pool to $9.5 billion and maintain our conservative metrics, which Peter will speak to in a moment. But before that, let me turn it over to Rudy for some more operational highlights. Rudy.

Thanks, Mitch. And good afternoon, everyone. The fourth quarter was once again a standout in near every meaningful aspect and operating metric. Tenant demand for space remains strong with near 200,000 square feet of vacancy leasing in the quarter, delivering high quality income across all provinces in both large and small centers, delivering that .7% occupancy that makes up the average of the year. And as Mitch spoke about, same property, NOI, continued its momentum with .8% growth over the period and prior year. Near 5.5 million square feet of space matured in 2024. And for the first time in a long time, tenant retention was above 91%, reflecting the improved attraction of the portfolio and with rental spreads of 8.8%, excluding anchors and .1% all in. Cash collections continue to exceed 99% in the quarter. And on a more exciting note, as Mitch mentioned, released the ex-Rona space at our 550,000 square foot Winston Churchill and 401 Center to Costco at Meaningful Market Rents. We also completed a new Walmart lease for the ex-target space in South Oakville with imminent possession and summer grand opening. The relaxation of grocery restrictions will not only continue to benefit large open format retail, but we believe will also accelerate the pace of tenant demand and customers to our center, maintaining strong cashflow and high occupancy. We've been adding uses such as medical, daycares, entertainment, health and beauty, fitness, pet stores and more, providing that one stop convenient place to shop. Our premium outlets continue to excel in driving traffic and improving tenant sales, leading to strong growth in EBITDA and value to the REIT. Tenant sales has our Toronto premium outlets in the top three highest performers in all of Canada and remains an out performer in Simon's portfolio. Our Toronto and Montreal locations remain a 100% leased and with rental lifts and EBITDA continuing to come in ahead of budget and well above the prior year. These affordable luxury centers and world-class brands continue to dominate in their segment. Overall, the REIT continues strengthening its cashflow and stability while reducing risks through strong rental lifts, higher covenant quality, introduction of new brands and more grocery. We expect this momentum to continue throughout 2025. With that, I will turn it over to Peter. Peter.

Thanks, Rudy. The financial results for the fourth quarter and the full year once again reflect a strong performance in our core retail business with improved occupancy and same property NOI growth and the continued contribution from our mixed use development portfolio. For the three months ended December 31, 2024, net operating income increased by $12.3 million or 9% from the same quarter last year, primarily due to lease up activities for retail and mixed use properties and an increase in CAM recoveries relative to the same quarter last year. FFO per fully diluted unit was 53 cents in the quarter compared to 59 cents in the comparable quarter last year. The decrease was primarily due to a fair value adjustment on our total return swap resulting from fluctuation in our unit price, partially offset by the increase in NOI. For the three months ended December 31, 2024, FFO with adjustments, which excludes the town home profits and the total return swap was 56 cents per unit compared to 51 cents in 2023. This increase of five cents or .8% was primarily due to lease up activity and an increase in CAM recoveries, partially offset by an increase in net interest expense compared to the prior year period. We maintained our distributions during the quarter at an annualized rate of $1.85 per unit. The payout ratio to AFFO for the full year ended December 31, 2024 was 91.7%. Adjusted debt to adjusted EBITDA was 9.6 times for the rolling 12 month period ending in Q4, which is a decrease from 9.8 times last quarter, primarily due to growth in EBITDA. Our debt to aggregate assets ratio was .7% at the end of the quarter, a 10 basis point increase compared to the prior quarter. Compared to Q3, our unencumbered asset pool increased by approximately $100 million to $9.5 billion in Q4. Unsecured debt, including our share of equity account and investments was $4.5 billion at Q4, virtually unchanged from the prior quarter and represents approximately 83% of our total debt of $5.4 billion. From a liquidity perspective, we remain comfortable with our current liquidity position. At December 31, 2024, we have approximately $833 million of liquidity, which includes both cash on hand and undrawn credit facilities, but excludes any accordion features. Subsequent to the quarter, we increased our liquidity through the issuance of $300 million of .737% Series AB senior unsecured debentures for a six and a half year term. The proceeds from this offering were used to repay our Series and debentures upon their maturity earlier this month and to repay higher interest floating rate debt on our operating lines. The weighted average term to maturity of our debt, including debt on equity account and investments, is 3.1 years. Our weighted average interest rate was 3.92%, a decrease of 17 basis points from the prior quarter. Our debt ladder remains conservatively structured with the recent unsecured debenture offering extending our weighted average term to maturity. Approximately 89% of our debt is at fixed interest rates. Just before we open the call up to questions, I wanna touch briefly on our development projects that are underway. As in previous quarters, we have updated our MD&A disclosure focusing on those development projects that are currently under construction. As you will see on page 17, there were 10 projects under construction at the end of Q4, up two from last quarter. The self storage facility in Stoney Creek was completed and opened in Q4, so it came off the list. And three additional self storage projects were added with estimated completion dates in 2026. The REIT's share of total capital costs of these 10 development projects is approximately $515 million, with our share of the estimated cost to complete standing at $288 million. And with that, we would be pleased to take your questions. So operator, can we have the first question on the call, please?

Certainly, as a reminder, if you'd like to queue up to ask a question, please press star one on your phone's keypad. The first question is from Michael Murkase from BMO Capital, Texas, please go ahead.

Thanks, operator, good afternoon, everybody. Peter, just a technical one to start off. The $4 million variance in camera coverings that you noted, is that to say that you had a benefit this year, i.e. income recorded in Q4, or was it that you had a penalty, sort of a negative true up in the prior year? I guess just trying to get a sense of if there's any element of income that we need to strip out of the run rate going forward.

Yeah, there was a true up in the prior year in 2023. We did launch a new accounting package, I don't wanna get too detailed in the accounting weeds, but we did use a new software package in 2024 that allows us to bill on actual cam versus budgeted cam with a true up at year end. So there was a little bit of that.

Okay, but for this quarter, is there any catch up payment that will come off in Q1, or no, it's such a clean number? No, this quarter is a good run rate. Okay, awesome, thank you. Okay, and then would that impact also help the same property underlie comparison for the quarter? Yes, a little bit. A little bit, okay. And then I don't know if you break this out, it may be useful going forward, but do you have an extent of the developments that you completed in 2023? Because I think you do it on a, your annual number wouldn't include those developments, but I guess if you delivered something before Q4, it would get into your Q4 pool, Q4 of 2023. Do you have a sense of what the developments that you delivered would be contributing to the same property underlie?

So the biggest one would be the Millway, which came on stream at the end of 2023, and so it would be in our same property, and I want to know when we compare Q4, 24 against Q4, 23. That would be the biggest one, and I would say it's about equally split, roughly. Michael, between new projects, including Millway and Self Storage, and the existing retail portfolio.

Okay, awesome, thanks for that. And then I guess just more of a high-level question here. Maybe for Mitch, you mentioned, congrats for it, by the way, on the, getting the Costco deal at Winston Churchill and Walmart at South Oakville. Just with respect to Walmart, and their $6.5 billion announcement and dozens, and I think we're all trying to figure out what dozens means of new stores over the next five years. Just curious if you are able to share, to the extent, any preliminary discussions you've had with them, and what that opportunity set might look like for smart centers going forward in terms of opening or development of new stores.

Yeah, I mean, we're not able to talk about specifics, but I mean, we'll be doing more than South Oakville, I can say that. So yeah, obviously we're, we're tight with, or we're close with Walmart in terms of being a large landlord of theirs, and a large percentage of the Walmart's that we do have in our portfolio and beyond, were developed by smart centers. So it would be, I guess it would be natural to assume that we'll do some. We certainly cannot do all of them. And in terms of announcements, I mean, those will be forthcoming over the next, foreseeable next year or so. Mostly probably announced by Walmart, but in some cases, maybe we'll be in a position to announce them on ourself. There'll be some ground up, Oakville's a vacant state, but there'll be some ground up new development, ground up Walmart's new developments across the country.

Okay, that sounds exciting. We'll look for that and I'll turn it back to the FQ, thanks.

Thank you. The next question is from Sam Damiani from TD Securities. Please go ahead, Sam.

Thanks, and good afternoon, everyone. So just on the Winston Churchill, I'm just curious, was that lease enabled by the relaxation of grocery lease restrictions? Just wondering why Costco is looking at that site now and not two or three or five years ago?

So Sam, I'm sure you've heard from all your contacts and relationships out there that it does take a while to do a Costco deal. So don't assume it's related to the discussions going on about grocery and grocery competition, but in any event, and you know, Ronan did have that facility under lease for a long time, even when it was not occupied or operated by them. But so really it's, you know, it's just, I think, a culmination of a lot of things. And so we've taken it back, you know, we've had it back for a little bit now, and we've been, yeah, we've been negotiating with Costco for quite some time. As you know, it takes a long time to do a Costco deal.

Absolutely. And just on the, I think I've said somewhere, you signed around 200, 250,000 square feet of new retail leases for new construction. Can you be more specific? Does that include Laird, the Canadian Tire? You know, what does that include? Is that over and above the current disclosed development pipeline and what would be the timing on that?

Well, yeah, no, no, no, it's not the Canadian Tire, which by the way, you should go by and you can see right now the garage, underground garage is fully formed basically and you can kind of see the, kind of the order of magnitude of that Canadian Tire, but no, it's not including that. I mean, obviously we, you know, we're dealing with a variety of different size retailers, so it's across the board, the list I think we gave you, really you'll speak to it in a little bit more in a second. So yeah, I mean, as we said, we anticipate that momentum to continue, but yeah, it is stuff that we do not have currently under construction.

Sure, and I had mentioned a little bit of this before, Sam. Some of these were, or are, when we start construction, will be in some smaller markets too, not just all urban markets. So we're pretty excited about that. And they include, you know, all of the TJX banners, Dollarama, the shoppers, LCBO. So it's a wide, sort of a wide variety of infill and adjacent to our existing shopping centers and all new construction, yeah.

And that would come online over the next one to two years for the most part? Yeah, we'll

be starting construction this year on almost all of that. So yeah, within the next one, end of this year and into next year, yeah.

Okay, okay, great. And the distinction is between that and some of the new, potentially new Walmart sites, which will not be on existing sites for all intents and purposes. So we were just talking about are mostly additions to existing sites, which is great. And then of course, in time, hopefully we will, we will announce the acquisition of additional lands to be anchored by Walmart. Understood,

that's helpful. Last one for me is just on sort of the residential development outlook. You know, how would you characterize any change in the outlook or expectations for construction starts or asset dispositions versus last quarter?

I mean, the only, you know, the only residential development we've got going on really is our walk for all intents and purposes. And we are, you know, we don't anticipate going to market on anything new, you know, in the foreseeable future, foreseeable meaning within our budget plans or announcements. Anything can happen, but if market conditions change, we will be, you know, we'll be ready to either go to market, you know, sell some sites, et cetera. We don't have any, we sold Muskoosh. We sold it to a partner that we own a building with in Muskoosh. And so that one was done, I think, in the fourth quarter, but we don't have anything to announce right now in the way of dispositions.

Thank you. Turn back.

Thank you. As a reminder, if you'd like to queue up to ask a question at this time, please press star one on your phone's keypad. The next question is from Lauren Comar from Desjardins Capital Markets, please go ahead.

Thanks, good afternoon, everyone. Maybe going back to the Walmart announcement, I was just wondering, could you give us any additional color on the lease, like if there's rent escalators, or if it will be, it'll be more akin to, you know, the historical leases you have in the portfolio?

Yeah, I mean, for the purposes of your question, no, they won't be akin to the old leases. There'll be some escalations, you know, that's probably what you're really asking, you know, during the principal term. And at least that's the ones that, you know, the ones that are Oakville, Oakville is not a flat lease, if that's what you're asking. And I would, I'm anticipating that, you know, well, it's always one by one in the circumstances, but, you know, visibility on some of the other ones, there will be some bumps as well.

Okay, and then would you, like, what would you need to see, and I know it's market dependent, but maybe a rough idea if you can, in terms of that rent to justify, or to make a ground up development work, and what kind of yields would you like to get? I don't know what's easier to answer.

Yeah, no, I mean, I understand. I mean, this way, I mean, we're not doing freestanding, you know, Walmart stores, you know, on their own to own, I mean, for the most part, there might be some circumstances which we don't need to bother getting into, but so it's part of a larger shopping center. So, you know, you can't look at the Walmart in isolation, but, and, you know, we don't build the Walmart, just the Walmart either, we build the Walmart and its parking, but we have to build, you know, pay forward for a lot of infrastructure, and, you know, off-sites, road improvements, intersections, ponds, stormwater management, you know, we prep the pads for future retailers and so on. So, but I would, for the purposes of just giving you some guidance, I mean, we don't do Walmart at, you know, we don't like Walmart stores to be dilutive, let's start with that. So, you know, you can, but there is, I don't wanna get into any more than that, but for all intents and purposes, you can assume they're not dilutive.

So, I would hope not. Okay, I would hope not, and is there any more locations that you had with that old target box where you could slot them in, in the portfolio, or is that kind of the one that sort of worked and that was that?

Well, I'm gonna call you after this call and see if you wanna, wanna job in the leasing department. Very, very good, where to go mentally. So, there might be, there's certainly interestingly, you know, some potential for Walmarts going on to existing sites, you know, ground up on existing sites. So, we might be able to, you know, we announce something like that. In terms of existing vacancies, unlikely. But hang on one second, let me just check some. Yep. But we have leased some large vacancies. They're not to Walmart, you know, mainly because they're very close by, they're existing. These vacancies were close to Walmarts, but for example, up here in VMC, we have a Rona, an old Rona store, sorry, Lowe's store. That they did not renew in a year ago, we're not quite coming up to a year. I think they were paying about 1250 or something a foot on 130 ish thousand square feet, maybe 134. Well, anyway, we just leased it. For plus or minus, let's say on either sides, let's say, you know, high teens, 18, 19, 20, somewhere in there, I don't wanna, we don't publish specific rents, so just giving you a range. So in that range, you know, for that entire premises to a single user, just for example. So that's first quarter stuff. We also, hold on one second, let me just check some. Nevermind, that's about it. We can talk about right now, but there's activity going on in large, former anchor tenant type space. You know, actually lease up those spaces not to Walmart, but to others.

Okay, that's fair enough. And then one other question, maybe for Peter. I was wondering if you could give us, because I know the premium outlets are big contributors and they're doing really well, but maybe give us an idea of what the NOI from overage rents were in 4Q, how much that contributed to same property and why it goes something along those lines.

Yeah, I learned a few things. I don't have that handy in terms of what that breakdown is in terms of the NOI from overage rents, but I can, we'll have a look and get back to you on that.

Okay, appreciate it. Thank you guys so much.

No problem.

All right, thank you. The next question is from Matt Kornak from National Bank Financial. Please go ahead, Matt.

Hey guys, actually this may be a follow on to Lauren's question there, but just wanted to understand there was a pretty good acceleration in base rent from Q3 to Q4, I think roughly 2%. And then also your miscellaneous revenue is high, but I think it maybe dips in Q1. But can you give us a sense of maybe the seasonality in Q4, if there's anything and how we should think about the run rate number? And also, like there wasn't a big change in the in-place occupancy and I think there was a ton of leasing done, but we'll get more stats for next year in Q1. But if you could give us a sense of the kind of what the drivers are and how much of it's maybe leased up of storage assets versus kind of the retail component.

Yes, there's seasonality in some of that, because of certain assets that pick up certain times of the year. And I guess there's some parking in there, which I guess also may have a little bit of seasonality. So, Peter, do you wanna? Matt,

what was your question? Any question on storage?

Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out as well. I mean, some of it, it sounds like the apartment leases up, but like where are the storage assets at? Like are they in your occupancy or are they separate? No, they're not

in our occupancy. They're not in our occupancy. We have 11 storage assets that are up and running. Eight of them are what we would characterize as stabilized, which means they've been open for at least a year. And we've been able to put term financing on them and pay off the construction facilities. And the other three have been open up for less than a year, and so they're not yet stabilized, but we expect to add them to the stabilized portfolio later this fall as they season. And they're performing very well. We've disclosed separately the occupancy for just the eight of the 11 that are stabilized, but it's not included in the 98.7 overall occupancy.

That's retail only. Okay, no, I appreciate that. And then maybe just in terms of the broader leasing stats, I know you're kind of into Q1. You probably know what the 2025 number looks like for the most part, but is it similar or have you seen further acceleration versus that kind of 6% total and 9% ex-anchors on Q1? On the new leasing spreads or new and renewal?

Similar. Good, similar. Don't think we really wanna make any predictions quite yet. Still a little bit early, but at the moment things look the same as in steady interest strong or hopeful, slightly, slightly sloping towards optimistic. But steady.

And I mean, it doesn't seem like it, at least in conversations with some of your peers, but the dislocations or potential dislocations, if and when we ever get a sense as to what's coming out of the US, like do you expect that to impact the business or consumers at the end of the day or the retailers that you're dealing with or have any kind of expressed any concerns at this point about potential economic dislocations if there is a trade war?

Of course, I guess, we assume that people will be more emphasis on value even with the idea in the air. So we think we're quite protected and well aligned with what market we're in, the reality of the economic reality of the Canadian consumer. And if it does get really ugly, I guess nobody can predict that. So that part we really can't predict, but we think we're well positioned for everybody just budgeting and hunkering down. And we like our confidence. I mean, we're not a percentage rent company and we're not a short-term, our leases are long-term, especially the largest spaces. So with very strong confidence. So we're pretty feeling pretty good about rent collections even in a period of really turbulent trade war scenarios.

I think if we're having troubles with Walmart paying rent, I've probably got bigger issues than how smart is that trading. Thanks guys.

Yeah, that's what we think too.

All right, thank you. The next question is from Pammy Burr from RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead, Pammy.

Thanks. Hi everyone. Just apologize if this was already answered, but coming back maybe to some of the Walmart lease in Oakville or maybe some potential new ones. Are you putting any additional capital or higher than typical capital into the space, maybe in exchange for the rents down? Any other comments?

We don't do that pretty much. I mean, I don't want you to remind me that I said this someday, but for all intents and purposes, we don't do that for anybody. We don't, I mean, it is done. We don't do it. That is pay

more

towards tenant improvements for higher rents. So the short answer to the Walmart question is no, and to others, it's also no. Okay, so- We do improve units though. We don't pay extra.

Yeah, so fair to say that the NERs on these types of deals will be sort of market levels. Yeah, yep. In terms of maybe some of the new potential developments that you're undertaking or that you plan to undertake on some of these expansions, what sort of unnevered yields would you be looking to target?

We don't do it quite as a, like, you know, we don't usually do one deal at a time. And so it doesn't work that way. We don't say, you know, we're targeting this return. By the way, you know, when you do a deal, you don't actually collect the rent for, you know, a year or two, like with retail. Obviously with residential, it's three and a half, three, three and a half years. But anyway, so you can target what you want, thinking, you know what you need, but you don't really borrow that money or lock into that money for a year or two. But generally speaking, for a variety of reasons, there are creative deals going in. I mean, we don't do, you know, we don't do deals just for the sake of doing deals. So they're creative. I will point out that the retailers that we deal with for the most part, they know what their stores cost. They know what the cost of money is. And they know what it costs to develop in addition to the building of the store. So it's not like, you know, and they want their stores. So they don't want to delay haggling. I mean, there's no haggling. We're not going to develop a store. And that's the other thing. We're not a startup. I mean, you know, and we're not buying a site because of that tenant's interest. You know, the site is operating for the most part and it is what it is. So, you know, the good news is we can do things pretty competitively because we already own the land. But secondly, the good news is I guess, you know, we don't have to do the deal. And they know that. So they're creative. They're fair to both sides. And they get done pretty quickly. So, yeah, that's sort of the color around the negotiation with those sub anchors.

Okay, that's helpful, Mitch. Just on the, I wanted to come back maybe to the same property. I know you closed out with a pretty good year. I guess, I just want to clarify, you do include the cell storage sites and Millway in your property in the last few years. That's the first question. And then just maybe coming back to, I think, last quarter, you talked about sort of a range of maybe three to 5% as a sustainable maybe run rate for organic growth as we go forward after the Q3 was pretty strong. So just curious if you still are comfortable with that target as we think about 2025 and changes to your thinking.

So, Pommie, on your first question, yes, we do include those self storage projects that are stabilized, as I mentioned earlier, that have been open for at least a year in the same property number. And then your second question, Millway is also included because that was opened in Q4 of 2023. And then I think the third part of your question was on the guidance that Rudy talked about on last quarter's call, three to 5%. I think that is still our view, albeit we'll probably be at the lower end of that range, but I expect we'll be within that range for 2025. Thanks very much, Peter. I will turn it back.

Thank you. We have a follow-up question from Michael Markides from BMO Capital Markets. Please go ahead, Michael.

Yep, thanks, Topper. Just with respect to, I think Lauren asked the question, but I didn't get the answer. How many of those sort of dark anchor boxes that the former Target and former Rona would be in the portfolio that you have that are giving ability to backfill in this type of manner?

We have, I'd say I call it three. I mean, we sometimes argue over when does it become like an anchor sort of size, but I'd say we've got Kitchener, got Cambridge, and that's where we all agree. But we also have Aurora, which we own, the old Canadian tire. So we've rezoned that. We were in Aurora, which is a fantastic site for pretty much anything. So we got it zoned for residential. We were gonna redevelop it. We're still considering it for residential, but we've kept that vacant because we're gonna redevelop it on Yonge Street. But in two of the three cases, Aurora and Cambridge, we have, I'd say, five to six out of 10 interest, level of interest, for those entire premises in those cases. And so Cambridge is pretty big. Well, Kitchener and Cambridge are pretty big, but we hope that we will get Aurora and Cambridge at least this year. And if we're lucky, we might also get Kitchener at least. So our goal in here is that we lease all three of those this year. And I feel pretty optimistic about that.

Okay, and then, and that's in addition to South Oakville, Winston Churchill, and the MC that you noted, right? Those haven't contributed yet. Yeah, those

are done. Those are released. So those three are now these. They're not contributing anything to

your...

No, no, no, but they're contributing to lowering our stress level.

Yes, so and then I just, just again, so I guess these sites are, I imagine they're in development, so they're not in your occupancy figures. But from a cashflow perspective, when they come online, the impact can be pretty significant.

So it's going reverse. Yes, they'll do something for sure, although some of them were gonna be developed, so they might be coming out of PUD. All of them were in the rezoning process to do residential. But in terms of earnings, in terms of, you know, NOI, in terms of, you know, FFO, et cetera, yes. Even occupancy will be affected because they're all 100% leased. So yeah, it'll contribute all the way around. Big spaces, you know, reasonable rent, fully net on spaces that are being empty, you know, where we've had no rent and not been collecting taxes, et cetera. So yeah, so moving.

Okay, that's

very helpful.

Thanks so much.

Thank you. The next question is from Mario Serek from Scotia Capital. Please go ahead, Mario.

Hi, thank you. Just two quick follow-ups. First, maybe for Peter on that same property and why expectation of three to 5% this year. Can you perhaps talk about the REIT's ability to increase the contractual kind of annual escalators on new leases? In 25, we've heard a lot. In 24, with respect to more pricing power going towards the landlords and implementing these types of contractual rental escalators at above average clip. Are you seeing that in your portfolio as well? And just maybe kind of share your thoughts on your ability to drive on.

I mean, we have, there's a lot of interest going on. It didn't stop with the year end or the quarter end. I mean, it's going on. So, you know, from strong retailers that we've listed there. So, you know, with those leases, the metrics, the data points will change for the better. So we're being cautious with our guidance, but we're feeling pretty, we're feeling the same way now as we did a few months ago in terms of level of interest. And so you can sort of see it start to kick in. I mean, a year ago, we started talking about this. I think we were sort of warning you all, trying to anyway. So it's starting to materialize and that's still going on and it'll continue to materialize.

Yeah, Mario, like, you know, like we were talking about earlier last year, as Mitch has said, you know, these things take time to do these deals. Like Mitch mentioned about Costco and Walmart and food and what's happening in the grocery business. And all of this takes time by the time the tenant deal is done and they get fixturing and before they open. So while we don't wanna sound very enthusiastic, we are very much believing that the market, that 2025 will be a strong year, but it'll take time for that to happen. So that's why we're, you know, erring on the side of being on the lower end of that range on the same property in Hawaii, because it'll take time for that to happen. But demand is good, grocery is good, tenant interest is strong. New build, like I mentioned earlier, the 250,000 square feet we signed for new build construction, which will start in 2025, probably won't open till the end or into 2026, will take place, but all in time.

I would like to add, so you guys understand, like that 250, you know, that's what's signed, you know, but it's all strong, it's all food store, you know, food store, TJX, you know, pharmacy. It's long-term leases, strong covenants, huge contributors to the traffic. So that is also continuing to go on. We're negotiating quite a bit of that. But the reason we're being cautious is that, you know, we live in it right now, it's a very volatile world, and we don't wanna, you know, have the, you know, sort of hubris to predict that, you know, everything's just gonna be status quo and continue on. I mean, because, you know, I'm sure we can all imagine different scenarios. So if nothing changed and we lived in a, you know, a static system, we'd be on the optimistic end, but, you know, we can't be, we can't predict. So that's a little bit more color behind what's going on and how we're factoring in what will actually get done, given everything that's going on in this country in the world for that matter.

Okay, and then if you look at the 25 expiries, the mix between expiries with fixed rate renewals versus market rate renewals, is it notably different than historical average?

I don't have that in front of me, but I don't think so. I think our portfolio is pretty well consistent year over year, so I expect 25 to be relatively the same, Mario.

Okay, my last question has been asked, I guess a couple of times today, just on potential development yields going forward. Mitch, I think you mentioned the recreative, I guess the definition of accretion could vary. So I'm just curious in terms of how internally you think about accretion, whether it's, you know, whether it's reference to the distribution yield, the FFO yield spread, the implied cap rate. How do you internally think about the definition of accretion, bad accretion, for example?

Yeah, I mean, first of all, we're pretty conservative, I mean, with our cost estimates and so on, so we're hoping we're gonna be on the right side of that so things will get better. I mean, we always wanna be accretive to FFO. And as I was saying earlier, you know, we don't have to do these. We're very, we'll be much more motivated on a vacancy, obviously, but, for our new build, you know, we do wanna have some cushion there, so, you know, but we never know until we build, we don't know exactly what the cost is gonna be. We don't go to tender before we sign a lease, unless it's density, you know, if it's, if it was a, you know, if it was a tower today of any kind, we'd probably wanna go almost all the way to tender, but for our bread and butter, you know, single story stuff, I mean, we pretty have, we have a pretty good feel across the country what it's gonna cost to build, and we leave some room there and we're hoping we'll get some, you know, we just tendered something that we're leased and we're gonna start building, and we came in, you know, really nicely under what we had estimated, and, you know, rents were based on higher construction prices. So somewhere between mid-high to high single digits would always be, in this environment, would always be, you know, not a bad place to start. For the kind of covenants that we get in the lease terms, on lease terms, and, you know, with the multiple deals that we do.

Thank you. We have no further questions at this time.

Thank you. Whoops, there, yep. Thanks for participating in our Q4 call. Please feel free to reach out to any of us if you have any further questions. In the meantime, have a great rest of your day. Thanks.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the SMARS Centre's REIT Q4 2024 conference call. Thank you for your participation, and have a nice day.